BREXIT

[fhl]

Really? How come the backbone of the German economy for decades, if not for centuries are small to midsized, often family owned businesses. Take Birkenstock for example. It is a company that was established in the 18th century (believe it or not). And that is a big company by German standards. How come even most smaller businesses have thrived and survived within the European union? This fact directly contradicts your points that you made re European leaders looking to satisfy big businesses. It is simply not true. In fact the opposite holds. Most countries in Europe had utility monopolies. Now any small provider of internet, gas, water, electricity can compete and sell its services to consumers. In fact even you can feed a local grid with self-produced electricity if you lived in Germany. What you are saying is simply not true.

I do not accept the premise that small business is a beneficiary in Germany of being in the EU.

The germans were the quote 'sick man of europe' ten years ago, then they did they're unemployment reform, that brought down there relative wages with the rest of the EU and world, and they've been on a tear ever since. I have seen no evidence that it is anything other than big business that is the beneficiary.

Your point as to utilities is meaningless. That's a whole different category. That falls into the global warming scam area. The EU is the largest proponent of alternative energy and that always comes from the smaller startups, not the major utilities. The startups are the ones that have been created at the very behest of the gov't regulations to enrich the proponents of solar and other alt energy businesses. And they are spectacular failures in case you haven't noticed. All, repeat all, at the behest of gov't policy.

 

[conduit]

You constantly keep on changing your words. I quote you:

"A zillion laws by Brussells does one thing. Eliminate competition from the little players and makes sure that the big companies get all the business."

-> You yourself claimed that Brussels'saim is to stifle competition from little players. That clearly is contradicted by the fact that many small businesses in Europe do great. If anything then the EU is looking to break down large conglomerates that aim for monopolistic behavior. Why do you think Microsoft and Google are so often in trouble in Europe? It is because it is them who do not respect consumers' rights for privacy, rights for xyz. You are barking up the wrong tree here, pal. If anything then the EU cares about the smaller consumer in many more ways than the US cares about the small guy on the street.

Please do not inject the same weird US style arguments ("I said so, so it's true", "I repeat myself, so it's true", "I link to a website that supports my view, so it's true"). I pulled out of all American politics threads because the line of reasoning of most there has become absolutely absurd. If you have a hard time to argue with facts, and facts only, and above all if you cannot pick up on points others made which they backed up with examples and facts then may I suggest you are way better off in the US focused politico threads? You can of course stay here and make a clown out of yourself here, too. It is your free choice. But may I suggest we can at least keep one thread that contains a minimum amount of logic and fact based debate?

I do not accept the premise that small business is a beneficiary in Germany of being in the EU.

The germans were the quote 'sick man of europe' ten years ago, then they did they're unemployment reform, that brought down there relative wages with the rest of the EU and world, and they've been on a tear ever since. I have seen no evidence that it is anything other than big business that is the beneficiary.

Your point as to utilities is meaningless. That's a whole different category. That falls into the global warming scam area. The EU is the largest proponent of alternative energy and that always comes from the smaller startups, not the major utilities. The startups are the ones that have been created at the very behest of the gov't regulations to enrich the proponents of solar and other alt energy businesses. And they are spectacular failures in case you haven't noticed. All, repeat all, at the behest of gov't policy.

 

[fhl]

You constantly keep on changing your words. I quote you:

"A zillion laws by Brussells does one thing. Eliminate competition from the little players and makes sure that the big companies get all the business."

-> You yourself claimed that Brussels'saim is to stifle competition from little players. That clearly is contradicted by the fact that many small businesses in Europe do great. If anything then the EU is looking to break down large conglomerates that aim for monopolistic behavior. Why do you think Microsoft and Google are so often in trouble in Europe? It is because it is them who do not respect consumers' rights for privacy, rights for xyz. You are barking up the wrong tree here, pal. If anything then the EU cares about the smaller consumer in many more ways than the US cares about the small guy on the street.

Please do not inject the same weird US style arguments ("I said so, so it's true", "I repeat myself, so it's true", "I link to a website that supports my view, so it's true"). I pulled out of all American politics threads because the line of reasoning of most there has become absolutely absurd. If you have a hard time to argue with facts, and facts only, and above all if you cannot pick up on points others made which they backed up with examples and facts then may I suggest you are way better off in the US focused politico threads? You can of course stay here and make a clown out of yourself here, too. It is your free choice. But may I suggest we can at least keep one thread that contains a minimum amount of logic and fact based debate?

Small business succcess in Germany, known as Mittelstand, is touted widely in certain areas of the press. Like here:
http://theconversation.com/the-secr...lstand-businesses-is-all-in-the-mindset-25452

But other areas of the press, like here:
http://www.economist.com/node/21548945
have a much different take on big vs small business in the EU.

"Consider the southern periphery of the euro area. Countries such as Greece, Italy and Portugal have lots of small firms which, thanks to cumbersome regulations, have failed lamentably to grow (see article). Firms with at least 250 workers account for less than half the share of manufacturing jobs in these countries than they do in Germany, the euro zone's strongest economy. A shortfall of big firms is linked to the sluggish productivity and loss of competitiveness that is the deeper cause of the euro-zone crisis. For all the boosterism around small business, it is economies with lots of biggish companies that have been able to sustain the highest living standards."

It seems the reality is that it is big business is the real success story. The only question is how they do it. The economist claims its economies of scale and such. I claim it is Brussells regulations. That's my theory. You can believe whichever side you want. Up to you.

 

[conduit]

I believe the factual side. There are tons of highly successful small businesses in Europe. Even pillow manufacturers. They do very well. So apparently they are not stifled by any European regulations or bureaucrats. So, I recommend you look for the culprit elsewhere. If what you claim is true then most or all of the small businesses would suffer. That is not supported by facts.

Small business succcess in Germany, known as Mittelstand, is touted widely in certain areas of the press. Like here:
http://theconversation.com/the-secr...lstand-businesses-is-all-in-the-mindset-25452

But other areas of the press, like here:
http://www.economist.com/node/21548945
have a much different take on big vs small business in the EU.

"Consider the southern periphery of the euro area. Countries such as Greece, Italy and Portugal have lots of small firms which, thanks to cumbersome regulations, have failed lamentably to grow (see article). Firms with at least 250 workers account for less than half the share of manufacturing jobs in these countries than they do in Germany, the euro zone's strongest economy. A shortfall of big firms is linked to the sluggish productivity and loss of competitiveness that is the deeper cause of the euro-zone crisis. For all the boosterism around small business, it is economies with lots of biggish companies that have been able to sustain the highest living standards."

It seems the reality is that it is big business is the real success story. The only question is how they do it. The economist claims its economies of scale and such. I claim it is Brussells regulations. That's my theory. You can believe whichever side you want. Up to you.

 

[endicottsteel]

Spoken like a true Englishman. Well put, sir.

amen. Most people who voted in this referendum have no clue what the fcuk is actually happening globally and in Europe. Huge wealth and power transfer has and is taking place. Brexit is possibly the start of a pushback against this globalist agenda which transfers power and wealth to the elite. The middle class children protesting in the London bubble only lasted 24 hours, they didn't have the stomach for it mainly because their cause was not strong enough and truly they didn't know what they were protesting for. If you stopped and asked one I guarantee you they would not even know the name of their own MEP, they probably wouldn't know the difference between Europe and the EU their biggest reason for staying in the EU is likely 'because they want to travel and now they can't.

I tell yer, if there is one thing that has come out of this referendum it is confirmation that the majority of people are really dumb, I can't sugar coat it, that's just the way it is.

 

[endicottsteel]

The idea of a tariff-free trading zone in Europe has great appeal. Somehow that turned into Brussels dictating the terms of everyday life in the member countries. I suppose it is the inevitable result of ceding sovereignty. It's never enough. They will always want more.

The underlying plan was and is to take power away from the people. The young people have bought this 'integration' argument hook line and sinker. It really is an incredible achievement to make a whole generation of young buy this nonsense whilst contributing to the m.o. I feel sorry for the young in the mediterranean, they have no work and their countries leaders are told when and what they can have elections on. If they don't comply they are threatened and fined.

 

[endicottsteel]

Brittain learned nothing from the vote. Absolutely nothing.

I've been reading up on the replacement of Cameron by the Tories. From what i've read, they've installed another Cameron type establishment pol in Theresa May. The other of the final two, Andrea Leadsom, was the real deal, but the establishment types smeared her and won the campaign. Leadsom was for Brexit, against all the immigration, and apparently importantly in the race, is against the homosexual agenda.
The new Torie leader, May, was against Brexit, for all the immigration, and goes along with the homosexual agenda. It's looks pretty much like the equivalent of them installing Jeb Bush.

So there is going to be continued chaos in Britain as people leave the party for Ukip.
The establishment there, just as here, refuse to listen to the voters. They think it's their divine right to rule.

I shared some of your concerns on the coronation of May into downing street. However tonight she has announced the major posts in her new cabinet and it is VERY right wing. She has also appointed a guy who is very anti-europe to head up the Brexit. I can tell you this new pm is tough and will make Cameron look like a patsy. This is Maggie Thatcher Mk2. Watch this space.

 

[endicottsteel]

Really? How come the backbone of the German economy for decades, if not for centuries are small to midsized, often family owned businesses. Take Birkenstock for example. It is a company that was established in the 18th century (believe it or not). And that is a big company by German standards. How come even most smaller businesses have thrived and survived within the European union? This fact directly contradicts your points that you made re European leaders looking to satisfy big businesses. It is simply not true. In fact the opposite holds. Most countries in Europe had utility monopolies. Now any small provider of internet, gas, water, electricity can compete and sell its services to consumers. In fact even you can feed a local grid with self-produced electricity if you lived in Germany. What you are saying is simply not true.

Rather than argue about what has happened to small companies because of the EU lets look at the facts.

Which countries have got richer because of the EU? Which are on their knees and fucked? hmmmmm tricky isn't it.

Which countries control the decision making in the EU?

Who benefits from cheap unskilled labour?

 

[conduit]

Wrong, they are fined when they put the rest of Europe at risk by running a risky budget and spending money where there is no money to spend. That results in excessive risk taking and there is a fine to that.

Your argument is like asking your broker to let your excessive risk taking slide and to not to execute margin calls on your account. That puts everyone at your broker at risk, even other customers. Hence you pay a fine that is used to make up for potential losses to the broker beyond your ability to repay and beyond your investment. Not sure why that is confusing...

The underlying plan was and is to take power away from the people. The young people have bought this 'integration' argument hook line and sinker. It really is an incredible achievement to make a whole generation of young buy this nonsense whilst contributing to the m.o. I feel sorry for the young in the mediterranean, they have no work and their countries leaders are told when and what they can have elections on. If they don't comply they are threatened and fined.

 

[conduit]

Not tricky at all. Look at the numbers they speak for themselves. Most people sport vastly higher living standards today than when their countries joined the EU. That includes Spaniards and even Greeks. You have no idea what you are talking about if you say the average Greek that had to drive on a motor bike on a sand track passing buildings that were right before collapsing a few decades ago. Today the same Greek is driving a Benz on top notch infrastructure passing by some of Europe's most modern architecture. The ports in Greece where shit decades ago and today are so competitive and top notch that the Chinese bought in big time. The concept of retirement savings did not even exist in the Greek soul until the EU introduced it to them. You have no idea what you are talking about.

And yes we stick to small companies. Your kind makes up wild accusations out of thin air. Next you are disproven by facts and figures. Instead of ever acknowledging that the other person was right and had a point you are too fuxxing proud and simply put up the next bogus BS about Europe.

Let's talk about real problems in Europe such as youth unemployment. But don't put up lies and bullshit which is obviously not true. Spain and Portugal and Greece were poor houses before they joined the EU and while they are way better off today than they were they are still poor houses today in the relative sense (comparatively) . In between they had a great party financed by everyone else and whose debt they never repaid. Some cultures value leisure and party over hard work and other cultures the other way around. That is the one big aspect that would speak against a common fiscal policy in my opinion and may favor a separate Europe of the North and the South.

Hell, why can't we have a cultured discussion here? Not everything about the UK is fucked up and neither is everything about Europe. Each have their fair share of burden to carry. I mentioned some challenges Europe has to deal with. Why can't you pick up on those and we have a fair debate. But making up lies and more lies is just disgusting.

Rather than argue about what has happened to small companies because of the EU lets look at the facts.

Which countries have got richer because of the EU? Which are on their knees and fucked? hmmmmm tricky isn't it.

Which countries control the decision making in the EU?

Who benefits from cheap unskilled labour?