BREAKING : XRP wins case against the SEC as it is ruled 'Not a security'

[Baron]

Ok Baron.... I get your point ...bitcoin is not a company, yes , so shall we call it a currency like EURO ? but then what do you call when an ICO happens and a new "Coin" is made from thin air! should such a conversion of real money not be scrutinized? and the other issue of Exchange security!

Believe it or not, Bitcoin isn't considered a currency either. All the major governments treat it like "digital property", meaning that it is taxed like real estate and other forms of property, meaning that you are taxed on the gain in value when you sell it.

In terms of the conversion to real money, that's been in the crosshairs of the government for a while, and that's one of the main reasons they made all the major exchanges implement KYC (Know Your Customer) procedures such as requiring multiple forms of ID as well as bank account information in order to open an account. They know that most people need the on and off ramps from crypto to traditional banks, and vice versa, to make the whole crypto coin game work in the first place.

I think most of the so-called coins are indeed securities, and should be regulated as such. But there are certainly some exceptions out there, and XRP has demonstrated that in the eyes of the courts.

 

[traderjo]

Believe it or not, Bitcoin isn't considered a currency either. All the major governments treat it like "digital property", meaning that it is taxed like real estate and other forms of property, meaning that you are taxed on the gain in value when you sell it.

In terms of the conversion to real money, that's been in the crosshairs of the government for a while, and that's one of the main reasons they made all the major exchanges implement KYC (Know Your Customer) procedures such as requiring multiple forms of ID as well as bank account information in order to open an account. They know that most people need the on and off ramps from crypto to traditional banks, and vice versa, to make the whole crypto coin game work in the first place.

I think most of the so-called coins are indeed securities, and should be regulated as such. But there are certainly some exceptions out there, and XRP has demonstrated that in the eyes of the courts.

I am surprised when you say Bitcoin isn't considered a currency ! I thought that is the entire theory of it's existence is it not? CRYPTO Currency !
Since gains in it's trading LIKE FX pairs is taxed it is a an commodity/ asset
Any way Commodity /"digital property"/ security or whatever... any sane financial market participant will agree that
1) it is an Financial product and thus it's own integrity is important and parmount
2) the exchanges it is traded on should robust and act as a true exchange.

 

[BMK]

I am surprised when you say Bitcoin isn't considered a currency

To the extent that anyone can agree on a formal, legal definition of currency...

the definition almost always includes something about it being issued and/or backed by a sovereign nation.

And the whole point of BTC, and most other crypto assets, is that they are neither.

Yes, apparently there are a couple of countries that recognize BTC as legal tender. But that's certainly not the same as issuing or backing a currency. And those two countries are outliers. The Central African Republic and El Salvador. They are not exactly known for having a stable fiat currency or a sound economy. The rest of the world is not exactly jumping on the legal tender bandwagon.

Or maybe it's easier to just think of it this way: Regardless of what you think the definition of currency is, almost every government in the developed world has a definition of currency that includes the idea that in order for something to be a currency, it has to have...

a central bank.

Do you get it now?

Crypto assets are not "currency" as that term is defined by the laws of most countries.

 

[Baron]

I am surprised when you say Bitcoin isn't considered a currency !

It's considered a currency for sure in the eyes of users, but from the perspective of governments, regulation, and taxation, it is not.

 

[ETJ]

The IRS considers them property for tax purposes. I assume they will adjust when rule-making finally occurs. Somewhat similar to options pre 1973. Classifying them as anything else could put them into the existing code and that could raise all kind of issues like MTM accounting.


"Do you pay taxes on crypto? People might refer to cryptocurrency as a virtual currency, but it's not a true currency in the eyes of the IRS. According to IRS Notice 2014–21, the IRS considers cryptocurrency to be property, and capital gains and losses need to be reported on Schedule D and Form 8949 if necessary."

You can see the tax treatment on their site.

 

[johnarb]

It's considered a currency for sure in the eyes of users, but from the perspective of governments, regulation, and taxation, it is not.

This is spot on

(US) government realized the most beneficial for them is to treat bitcoin as commodity or digital property

This allows them to impose taxes as much as they want. The other aspect of treating bitcoin as property is to have control, i.e. impose restrictions on transfers or exchanges

Personal anecdote, in the 2017 bull market I started using bitcoin for purchases, travel, computers/electronics and other stuff, from places like NewEgg and Cheapair dot com over $20K worth

At the end of the year, I got all my receipts from emails and then I realized all the transactions were in btc's and no mention of US $ conversion. I emailed the vendors asking for 1099 or some kind of tax paperwork and they said that the receipts are the only ones they can provide

I spoke with my CPA and the only thing we could do is to self report the info and pay capital gains based on our own records

There's really no way to tax currencies. except sales taxes... and that's why governments will classify bitcoin and other crypto assets as commodities or digital properties (assets) or securities... for control and tax purposes

 

[traderjo]

This is spot on

(US) government realized the most beneficial for them is to treat bitcoin as commodity or digital property

This allows them to impose taxes as much as they want. The other aspect of treating bitcoin as property is to have control, i.e. impose restrictions on transfers or exchanges

Personal anecdote, in the 2017 bull market I started using bitcoin for purchases, travel, computers/electronics and other stuff, from places like NewEgg and Cheapair dot com over $20K worth

At the end of the year, I got all my receipts from emails and then I realized all the transactions were in btc's and no mention of US $ conversion. I emailed the vendors asking for 1099 or some kind of tax paperwork and they said that the receipts are the only ones they can provide

I spoke with my CPA and the only thing we could do is to self report the info and pay capital gains based on our own records

There's really no way to tax currencies. except sales taxes... and that's why governments will classify bitcoin and other crypto assets as commodities or digital properties (assets) or securities... for control and tax purposes

ok not a currency for govt ,,, so a commodity or a financial asset ( digital or not is immaterial IMHO as our Fiat currency is also now a days digital in nature! ) so as far as regulations are concerned then in USA it will fall under CFTC or SEC so govt and consumer wins ! so why these exchanges are fighting SEC and CFTC!

 

[johnarb]

ok not a currency for govt ,,, so a commodity or a financial asset ( digital or not is immaterial IMHO as our Fiat currency is also now a days digital in nature! ) so as far as regulations are concerned then in USA it will fall under CFTC or SEC so govt and consumer wins ! so why these exchanges are fighting SEC and CFTC!

You're ill-informed

The biggest crypto exchanges in the US, Coinbase, Gemini, Kraken, spent 10's of millions of $ to try to register with the SEC, but Goldman Gary would not grant them any meeting

Instead, SEC sued all of them, Kraken had to settle and paid $20M from my memory, sued Coinbase, sued Gemini, also sued PAX the stablecoin issuer based in the US, also sued

The only person that had access to Goldman Gary was Sam Scammerman-Fraud stole billions of $ from investors, stole billions of $ worth of crypto assets from customers

SEC effectively gave FTX us and FTX offshore full approval to operate and steal from worldwide crypto companies and customers. SEC only sued FTX us and dot com after they had been bankrupted

So let me ask you this, why do you think all of these things happened? many suicides, many crypto companies got bankrupted some of them from the US without any of the US regulators going after the fraud FTX advertising and putting the face of Sam Scammerman-Fraud everywhere?

And why do you think the crypto exchanges are the problem and you think they are fighting regulations?

Anyway, the US is a dead market for crypto adoption, you'll be able to buy crypto in the AML-KYC walled garden and you will be happy

The rest of us not in the US are very happy with our fair regulations and operating in the crypto ecosystems natively

 

[traderjo]

The rest of us not in the US are very happy with our fair regulations and operating in the crypto ecosystems natively
speak for yourself... AUS is cracking down also https://asic.gov.au/about-asic/news...-australia-derivatives-afs-licence-cancelled/

US regulators may have a egg on their face, agree... but that does not mean this financial product should not be regulated ,, Let me ask you also when was the last time major global exchanges went belly up? NYSE/CNE/ CBOE/ ASX/ SGX/ LME/ and now compare this to many other exchanges who have disappeared ! WHY?

 

[johnarb]

The rest of us not in the US are very happy with our fair regulations and operating in the crypto ecosystems natively
speak for yourself... AUS is cracking down also https://asic.gov.au/about-asic/news...-australia-derivatives-afs-licence-cancelled/

US regulators may have a egg on their face, agree... but that does not mean this financial product should not be regulated ,, Let me ask you also when was the last time major global exchanges went belly up? NYSE/CNE/ CBOE/ ASX/ SGX/ LME/ and now compare this to many other exchanges who have disappeared ! WHY?

You're not in the US??? Then why the fuck are you whining and bitching about US regulations, blah blah blah,

READ THIS SLOWLY... the problem is the SEC, not the exchanges. Goldman Gary was asked by Congress several times if the 2nd biggest crypto is a security or not and he could not answer it

WHAT THE FUCK goes in your shitty mind that you cannot see the US regulatory environment is unfair towards crypto assets???

Anyway, you want to keep bitching about the US regulations, move to the US first, bitch

Australia and Canada and UK and some countries in Europe are US financial bitches, they follow the US master nation