Bread & Butter Iron Condors

Quote from Put_Master:

If a stock drops slightly below your lower strike, and there is some theta left in the trade, it still pays to close the trade. Better to only lose 90 - 95% than 100%.
Only if the cost to close the trade exceeds your strike gap, is it better to just let it expire and lose 100%.
No point paying a commssion if you are already at 100%.


As far as I know it works something like this:
If I don't close the AAPL 600/595 Spread before the bell on Expiration Friday and AAPL closes at 599, the AAPL 600 Put I sold has closed ITM and my account is assigned 100 shares of AAPL at the strike price of $600.

I don't need to have $60,000 in my account to buy the stock. It is immediately sold by my broker in the After Hours Market for 599 (or close to it) and the $100 loss (+ commissions) is deducted from my account.

The broker also has the prerogative to Buy To Close my Spread before the bell, if they can't contact me.
I'm assuming they do this if the stock isn't available to be sold in the After Hours Market.

The 595 AAPL Put I bought as part of the Spread expires worthless if the closing price is 595 or higher.
If the closing price is 594 my Long Put is automatically exercised and I'm then short 100 shares of AAPL, sold at 595, IF I have enough money in the account for the margin involved.

If there isn't enough money to margin 100 short shares of AAPL, the broker liquidates the position instead, and gives me the profits for the 595 Put trade ($100).
I assume the Options Clearing Corporation (OCC) gives the broker the $100 to give to me.

Not totally clear on that last bit.
Will ask thinkorswim about all this on Monday and let you know what they say.

But there's no way an account could get wiped out because of the value of the underlying stock in a credit spread.
No one would trade them if that were true.
:eek:
 
Quote from cdcaveman:

i get that... totally makes sense.. my thoughts are this.. say i have a 10 thousand dollar account... a 3-5 hundred dollar fly is 5 percent of my account.. thats all i can lose.. not a bad position size to me.. next thing to consider is... don't put a fly on in a correlated name in your next position.. basically if you have five percent in one fly on aapl.. and five percent in another fly on goog.. your really closer to 10 percent in your position size cause your concentrated to a certain degree because of the correlation between the two stocks.. that being said.. it is very hard to sell premium and make money on a small account... you can do buy over writes only on small priced tickers.. and or you can buy over write with itm calls against otm calls.. say bac itm against otm... with a decent time to expire.. not these two weeks before expire trades that have so much gamma in them they are impossible to manage..

as i drive around at work during the day .. i think about the many traps there are for small acount traders... you sit there and can't be happy making 20 bucks on a thousand... so you increase your risk to get larger dollar amount rewards.. and fuck yourself.. but hey i'm sure if i had a ton of money to trade with i'd have other bridges to cross.. if your not happy with where your at right now.. you'll never be happy in any place..

I like the last line of your post. All stocks are correlated when it matters most.

Unfortunately the reality is that trading is about capital. The less you have the harder it is to make more of it. If you want to take 20k to 200k then either get long some kind of convexity or make 15percent a year every year for 20 years.
 
Quote from newwurldmn:

I like the last line of your post. All stocks are correlated when it matters most.

Unfortunately the reality is that trading is about capital. The less you have the harder it is to make more of it. If you want to take 20k to 200k then either get long some kind of convexity or make 15percent a year every year for 20 years.
I disagree. You can easily make 50%-80% on 200k if you have the right tools and the right knowledge. It's relatively easy to make very nice returns on small amount of capital, capacity constrained opportunities abound in the market. Of course, you also have to spend the required time to find these opportunities.
 
Quote from sle:

I disagree. You can easily make 50%-80% on 200k if you have the right tools and the right knowledge. It's relatively easy to make very nice returns on small amount of capital, capacity constrained opportunities abound in the market. Of course, you also have to spend the required time to find these opportunities.

But not by being a consistent seller of vol.

I agree with you about capacity constrained opportunities.
 
Quote from sle:

I disagree. You can easily make 50%-80% on 200k if you have the right tools and the right knowledge. It's relatively easy to make very nice returns on small amount of capital, capacity constrained opportunities abound in the market. Of course, you also have to spend the required time to find these opportunities.

Sle, this is something you have repeated numerous times in your posts and you've even hinted to a few of these opportunities. IIRC you talked for example about dispersion on less liquid ETFs. Is this something you still like? Or any other ideas or hints you feel like sharing? Thanks.

I am actually looking (i.e. not trading) at biotech ETFs/components mainly because it is an industry I have some deeper knowledge of, I am a novice in options trading.
 
Quote from cactiman:

<<< As far as I know it works something like this:
If I don't close the AAPL 600/595 Spread before the bell on Expiration Friday and AAPL closes at 599, the AAPL 600 Put I sold has closed ITM and my account is assigned 100 shares of AAPL at the strike price of $600.
I don't need to have $60,000 in my account to buy the stock. It is immediately sold by my broker in the After Hours Market for 599 (or close to it) and the $100 loss (+ commissions) is deducted from my account.
The broker also has the prerogative to Buy To Close my Spread before the bell, if they can't contact me.
I'm assuming they do this if the stock isn't available to be sold in the After Hours Market. >>>

The above is correct. But if you are not in contact with the company, you won't know which of the above they will do. Nor do you know what your specific selling price will be after hours.
BTW, options only trade for one hour after option expiration day.

If they close the trade for you before expiration day, it will be because they feel the account can not handle the risk of owning the stock over the weekend and into monday morning.
But, if they allow you to wait until monday morning, that will be a VERY stressful weekend for you. Because if the stock opens down $100, you will be responsible for the loss.
To put it another way, if you only have $20,000 in your account, and your loss is $30,000, you will owe your brokerage firm $10,000.
If you don't pay them they will sue you. They will sue you for what ever the amount is you owe them, as it was your decision to over leverage your account via the spread trade.
And it was your decision not to close it prior to expiration day.


<<< The 595 AAPL Put I bought as part of the Spread expires worthless if the closing price is 595 or higher.
If the closing price is 594 my Long Put is automatically exercised and I'm then short 100 shares of AAPL, sold at 595, IF I have enough money in the account for the margin involved. >>>

If the stock closes a penny or more under $595, your loss is $500.
The trade is over, and you are at max loss.


<<< If there isn't enough money to margin 100 short shares of AAPL, the broker liquidates the position instead, and gives me the profits for the 595 Put trade ($100).
I assume the Options Clearing Corporation (OCC) gives the broker the $100 to give to me. >>>

If you waited for expiration day to close the position, there will be no profits for the long put.


<<< But there's no way an account could get wiped out because of the value of the underlying stock in a credit spread.
No one would trade them if that were true. >>>

It's unlikely that any strategy has wiped out more accounts than credit spreads, or spread like strategies.
To put it another way, if you put all your account money into a single spread or multiple spreads, and they all closed a penny under your long strike, your account is now 100% wiped out.

On the other hand, suppose you instead closed the trade(s) with the stock(s) trading in the equvilent range of $596 - $597 of your AAPL spread. I would estimate the loss of value to your account to be in the area of 60 - 80%.
That $20,000 account may now only be worth $4,000 - 5, 000.
Hence the reason it's best to close a spread BEFORE it gets inside your strikes.... unless you are willing to own the stocks and are capable of buying them.
But because of the MASSIVE margin leverage most spread traders are on, (and don't even realize it), you will not be able to buy most of your stocks.
 
Quote from sle:

I disagree. You can easily make 50%-80% on 200k if you have the right tools and the right knowledge. It's relatively easy to make very nice returns on small amount of capital, capacity constrained opportunities abound in the market. Of course, you also have to spend the required time to find these opportunities.
While I agree it is possible to potentially earn those kinds of % returns via option strategies, shouldn't you also be discussing the "probability" of actually earning it as well?
As well as the "probability" of ruining your account value in the process?
There's a difference between earning 50 - 80% on the occasional trade you take a higher risk on than usual, or when you just happen to catch something at the exact best time.... vs attempting to earn that kind of % return on a regular basis, as an annual goal.
 
Quote from kapw7:
Sle, this is something you have repeated numerous times in your posts and you've even hinted to a few of these opportunities. IIRC you talked for example about dispersion on less liquid ETFs. Is this something you still like? Or any other ideas or hints you feel like sharing?
I have not looked at smaller ETF dispersion for a while, might still be there; Overall, the idea is to find small, illiquid stocks or ETFs that have options and try to see if there is any sort statistical opportunities there, I will send you a PM with a few examples.

Quote from kapw7:
I am actually looking (i.e. not trading) at biotech ETFs/components mainly because it is an industry I have some deeper knowledge of, I am a novice in options trading.
Smart thinking. Options on biotech stocks in general present good risk/reward to people who have good understanding of the business with some basic understanding of the risks and pricing. The two skill-sets rarely coexist in the same person and you might be able to find good ways to making money.
 
Quote from Put_Master:

While I agree it is possible to potentially earn those kinds of % returns via option strategies, shouldn't you also be discussing the "probability" of actually earning it as well?
As well as the "probability" of ruining your account value in the process?
There's a difference between earning 50 - 80% on the occasional trade you take a higher risk on than usual, or when you just happen to catch something at the exact best time.... vs attempting to earn that kind of % return on a regular basis, as an annual goal.
There is no "probability" to talk about here, I am not suggesting taking more market risk and competing for alpha with the big boys. Instead, I actually mean steadily producing these kinds of returns (with Sharpe of over 2) by locating statistical and mis-pricing opportunities. It does take a lot of work and some smart information processing, but for someone who only needs to deploy 200k it's a fairly reasonable task.

PS. Remember, you asked me why am I running over 20 different strategies? Well, this way I am producing 30% returns on much bigger capital with Shrape of about 2.
 
Quote from sle:

There is no "probability" to talk about here, I am not suggesting taking more market risk and competing for alpha with the big boys. Instead, I actually mean steadily producing these kinds of returns (with Sharpe of over 2) by locating statistical and mis-pricing opportunities. It does take a lot of work and some smart information processing, but for someone who only needs to deploy 200k it's a fairly reasonable task.

PS. Remember, you asked me why am I running over 20 different strategies? Well, this way I am producing 30% returns on much bigger capital with Shrape of about 2.

Alpha Trading
- Perry Kaufman
 
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