"Bowling for Columbine"

Well said.

If we never hear back from the people who openly
advertise that they are defenseless, we will
know what happened :D

It really all comes back to the kind of govt. you want.

One that baby sits all of us, because we are untrustworthy idiots,
or one that believes in individual liberties and personal responsibility.

peace

axeman



Quote from Maverick74:

I think this issue like many other issues really explains the differences between the republicans and democrats very well. Where as the republicans believe in personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions, democrats believe you are too stupid or too ignorant to be responsible. They don't even want to give you that option. Also democrats refuse to want to accept the bigger issue. Family values. Now I am not saying that if you grow up in a good family and you learn right from wrong that you will never abuse your gun privileges. But I do believe that family does play a very large role in this issue. Having a father who teaches your right from wrong and shows you how to responsibly own and use a gun makes all the difference in the world. Of course liberals get all upset when you start talking about family values and personal responsibility. They want to blame everything on the gun. Like we are wild animals with no controls over our actions. That is complete BS. Like many people have mentioned earlier, the criminals will always have guns. What do you think gangsters buy rifles at Walmart? LOL. Trust me, the kind of guns they buy are not sold in stores. They are very sophisticated and modified. It would scare the shit out of you if you knew what was floating around on the street. So by making it hard for regular citizens to own a guy you are only making it easier for criminals. But if you don't want to own a gun why don't you hang a sign outside your home that says no gun in this home. Give it a couple of weeks and report back to us. I'm guessing you will have some very unfriendly visitors.
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Why to people make such longgggggggggggggg posts. It gets boring.

anyway, bottom line is : It must be a good movie to generate this much heat, I'm renting it tonight.

As for guns, well, I'm not totally naive, I've served time in the joint, and most people who buy guns are asking to get their brains blown out.

We can admit it, Europe, Japan and Canada are superior to us in some respects, and violence is one of our weaknesses. We also have our strengths. You won't catch me defending our weakness.
 
"I've served time in the joint, and most people who buy guns are asking to get their brains blown out."

Care to substantiate this claim with some statistical facts
instead of your unsupported opinion?

The stats show that guns are very effective for personal
self defense.

In fact, merely brandishing a firearm, is usually all it takes
to deter a criminal, even a gun toting one.

No one wants to be in a gun fight.


"Florida State University criminologist, Gary Kleck, analyzed data from the Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (1992-1998). Describing his findings on defensive gun use, in Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control, New York:Prometheus Books (2001), Kleck writes:


...The most effective form of self-protection is use of a gun. For robbery the self-protection meaures with the lowest loss rates were among victims attacking the offender with a gun, and victims threatenting the offender with a gun.


In a logistic regression analysis, Kleck and Miriam Delone ("Victim Resistance and Offender Weapon Effects in Robbery," Journal of Quantitative Criminology 9 [1993]: 55-82) found that robbery victims who used guns in self-protection were significantly less likely to either be injured or lose their property than victims who used any other form of self protection or who did nothing to resist."


There goes your theory.


peace

axeman




Quote from shortologist:

Why to people make such longgggggggggggggg posts. It gets boring.

anyway, bottom line is : It must be a good movie to generate this much heat, I'm renting it tonight.

As for guns, well, I'm not totally naive, I've served time in the joint, and most people who buy guns are asking to get their brains blown out.

We can admit it, Europe, Japan and Canada are superior to us in some respects, and violence is one of our weaknesses. We also have our strengths. You won't catch me defending our weakness.
More...
 
Quote from shortologist:

Why to people make such longgggggggggggggg posts. It gets boring.

anyway, bottom line is : It must be a good movie to generate this much heat, I'm renting it tonight.....
More...


It is a great movie. Enjoy.

I'm curious if anyone who actually saw the movie picked up that Moore's thesis was that Americans' chronic fear of the "other" and resultant aggression is at the root of the excessive violence, not guns per se.
 
I almost agree with you.

What Moore presented did indeed lead you to believe this.

But this begs the question.... WHY then did Moore make
every attempt to pin everything on the NRA and guns???

If he left his blatant bias out of it, it would have been pretty
good and people could have concluded on their own,
that it wasn't a gun issue, but a social issue.

But he took every pot shot he could at guns.

Why did he harrass Heston?
Why did he go after Kmart with shooting victims?
Why did he attempt to tie the NRA with the KKK?

He's a drama queen.


peace

axeman





Quote from resinate:




It is a great movie. Enjoy.

I'm curious if anyone who actually saw the movie picked up that Moore's thesis was that Americans' chronic fear of the "other" and resultant aggression is at the root of the excessive violence, not guns per se.
More...
 
Quote from axeman:

I almost agree with you.

What Moore presented did indeed lead you to believe this.

But this begs the question.... WHY then did Moore make
every attempt to pin everything on the NRA and guns???....
peace

axeman
More...

Good question and true that it complicates Moore's societal commentary.

My sense is that since he points out how the NRA was founded at the same time as the KKK and one of the first acts the NRA supported was banning black people from owning guns, that Moore connects much of the pro-gun lobby with fear of various others. Hence, the repeated filming of Heston and others commenting that the violence in the US could be related to our ethnic mix....

Remember, Moore stresses repeatedly that he has always enjoyed guns and is a lifetime member of the NRA. Its possible that he really means this....
 
Quote from axeman:

"On a personal note, I think if i owned a gun I would be more inclined to actually use it or consider using it if I were to get into a confrontation."

Then don't get a gun.

"Do we really own guns because we are afraid of break-ins? "

For some people, yes. In my college days, a DEFINITE yes.
If I were allowed to carry concealed, I would have done
that also in my neighborhood.


"What use are all those security systems?"
Security systems are a joke when it comes to violent criminals.
HEY BUDDY! STOP PLUNGING THAT KNIFE INTO MY CHEST!
CAN'T YOU HEAR MY HOME ALARM SYSTEM GOING OFF?!?!?! :D


"With stricter gun laws would it be tougher for criminals to have access to guns?"

DC and NYC prove this is not the case.
Criminals always have access to guns, drugs, whatever...
Laws only affect the law biding ( aka...the non-criminal).


"Would the crime rate increase if everyone had access to guns? "

Not according to the stats.
There are also many examples which show crime reduction
when cary conceal laws are passed. For example:

In 1987, Florida enacted a "shall issue" RTC law, now the framework for similar laws and legislative proposals in other states. RTC was supported by the Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement, Florida Sheriffs Assn., Florida Police Chiefs Assn., and other law enforcement groups. Opponents waged a fear-based campaign, claiming crime would increase if law-abiding citizens carried guns. Anti-gun politicians predicted Florida would become the "GUNshine State." The news media forecast vigilante justice and "Wild West" shootouts on every corner. One newspaper said "(A) pistol-packing citizenry will mean itchier trigger fingers. . . . South Florida's climate of smoldering fear would flash like napalm when every stranger totes a piece, and every mental snap in traffic could lead to the crack of gunfire." The predictions were proven false. From the inception of Florida's RTC law through 1991, Florida's homicide rate decreased 20%, while the U.S. rate increased 15%. Beginning in 1992, homicide began decreasing nationally while continuing to decrease in Florida. Only 0.02% of Florida carry permits are revoked because of firearm crimes committed by license holders. Florida Licensing Division Director, John Russi, said, "When you compare that to the number of licenses that were issued, that's very small." The gun crime rate among permit holders is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. (FBI) Additionally, Director Russi stated that there was "no record of any accidents or incidents from a lack of training" and that "Florida's concealed weapon law has been very successful. All major law enforcement groups supported the original legislation and in the eight years the program has been in place, none of these groups has requested any changes....(S)one of the opponents of concealed weapon legislation in 1987 now admit the program has not created the problems many predicted." (Testimony before the Michigan House of Representatives Judiciary Committee, 12/5/95.)



peace

axeman
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Hey Axie, since you know so much about Florida, and it's RTC, perhaps you can tell us about Harry Lee Coe.

Well I'll save you the trouble. Harry was a major supporter of RTC. He was a judge back then, who went on to become Hillsborough County's Chief Attorney. During Harry's term in office he "lost" six *yes, six) hand guns issued to him. Did the NRA funded book you are so fond of quoting mention Harry, or his six missing hand guns. Till the dat Harry died, at the other end of the seventh gun issued to him (he blew his brains out under an over pass not 4 blocks from here), they never did find any of Harry's missing guns.

Do you care about Harry's missing guns? Or the fact that Harry was a drunk. Or that Harry was a compulsive gambler who died deeply in debt - read that as Harry had serious emotional problems. Of course not. So there are six guns out there tonight - presumably not in the hands of upstanding folks. What would you suggest I do? Don't tell me - get a gun, to protect myself.
 
Quote from Maverick74:

... Family values. Now I am not saying that if you grow up in a good family and you learn right from wrong that you will never abuse your gun privileges. But I do believe that family does play a very large role in this issue. Having a father who teaches your right from wrong and shows you how to responsibly own and use a gun makes all the difference in the world...
More...

Yes.

I was brought up with rifles and handguns all my life. I used to help my father clean and lubricate (anybody remember 3 in1 oil?) them in our driveway every few months, we had quite a few. He also taught me the awesome responsibility one has when in control of a lethal weapon and the value of human life. And circumstances in which to take a life. All of which I pass to my son as much as he can digest.

Somehow violence and killing have become glorified and cool in this country, and I blame the entertainment industry wholeheartedly. They've got blood on their hands for the proliferation and profit of violent movies and TV, and violent music. I came from somewhat of a stable home and rarely watched TV growing up, but dam, I sure wanted to kill some Germans after watching Combat. Imagine inner city kids or any kid for that matter who doesn't have a healthy grip on reality. What is he deluged with:

Movies in which everything is settled by killing (too many to list)
Rap music (50 cent, Tupac, etc.) in which everything is settled by killing. This is a particularly insidious form (not rap in itself) because it appeals to those most vulnerable and makes heroes out of losers. And they (the black community) continue to profit from the blood money and do nothing about it. What ever, c'est la vie. Except now that Gangsta Rap is so popular even other races have embraced its stupidity.

Couple this with a non-existent father and over-worked mother and what's to be expected. I think grown-ups forget how impressionable a young mind is. This is where it all starts. It all starts at home. Always has, always will.

As for gun control, as long as the guy next door has the ability to shoot me, I want to equalize my chances. But to me, this is just a secondary argument.
 
Quote from axeman:

I almost agree with you.

What Moore presented did indeed lead you to believe this.

But this begs the question.... WHY then did Moore make
every attempt to pin everything on the NRA and guns???

If he left his blatant bias out of it, it would have been pretty
good and people could have concluded on their own,
that it wasn't a gun issue, but a social issue.

But he took every pot shot he could at guns.

Why did he harrass Heston?
Why did he go after Kmart with shooting victims?
Why did he attempt to tie the NRA with the KKK?

He's a drama queen.


peace
axeman
More...


Better a drama queen than a two-faced paranoid who trys to hide his fear/hate of minorities behind the Constitution - not to mention supporting the drunk Alzheimer suffering moron who fronts for the NRA.
 
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