Bond Futures

I have backtested before, and again, it has consistently shown my trading to have benefitted from selling halves than getting out all at once. There were many, many trades where the wiggles would have stopped me out with break even had I held out the whole position for my target, whereas when selling halves my number of net profitable trades increased dramatically.


As for drawdown, I rarely worry about it, or "opportunity cost", since I rarely stay in a position if it initially goes against me. I'm more than happy to get out immediately and figure out later what went wrong, or re-enter again. And I don't view staying in a profitable position and allowing it to develop as any kind of opportunity cost.

Okay, so even though you don't trade bonds, you would have exited the entire position in one shot. Had I done that in this trade, I would have made no money, because my ultimate target was 113, but the price movement wiggled around to the point that I would have been stopped out completely. By selling halves and locking in certain profit levels, I was able to keep wider stops to allow more wiggle room, while being sure that the net trade would be a profitable one. As it turns out, this strategy worked out perfectly, and has tended to work much better than any other system I've tried. Again, to each his own.

Quote from CaroKann:



Maybe we are just arguing semantics like you said.. I would say that the account suffered a small drawdown, and then went positive.

I view it as my total net worth at any given instant (mark-to-market down to the tick), as if I were to suddenly need to liquidate everything. Holding through a drawdown costs time/opportunity, and I find it difficult to feel the trade is not a loser.


I was incomplete in my argument. What I wanted to say is backtest scaling out vs not scaling out. What you have are two distinct targets. One will likely be superior. So, I would either exit all the position at what you call a "half," or exit all where you usually go completely flat.



I submit that the greater asset value portfolio is always superior, since you can enter the same positions as the first portfolio, except at a better price, and outperform indefinitely.



I can't comment on that, since I have never been a bond trader, and I wouldn't have taken a H&S trade. It would be too easy for me to look at it in hindsight and come up with an unrealistically optimistic strategy.

But I can say that with certainty that I would exit the whole position at once, rather than half out and let the rest ride :)
 
I sometimes notice size in the bid / offer used on the

electronic bond futures as a fake out ... to frighten traders
into getting out or getting into a bad trade
 
Quote from zboy2854A:

.... You start with $100K of your own money. You short 20 contracts at 118 ......

Just curios: where was your original initial stop?
Thanks.
 
quote from Dr. Zhivodka :

This is in contrast to what brother spreadem was doing which was taking quick profits and reserving and getting stopped for losses and then reversing again and etcetera etcetera. My point to him this sort of Micro minutia is unnecessary when Bond and Currencies change trend. But to each his own. There's certainly no monopoly on trading ideas out there.

I just found this past three weeks very interesting because we all had the self-confidence to post our thoughts in real-time. I simply perceived that some of fella's were making some of the same mistakes that I've made over the years by not letting their profits run. I think it was a very fortunate and productive exercise but other opinions may vary on that.
Even after much discussion about when to take profits; I, myself am still not sure of how to maximize the realized profits on the current short Sept bond position.

After getting short Sept Bonds at 115'16 on Monday (on what was anticipated as a daytrade) and watching this baby drop off the side of a cliff (... therefore I held short overnight); I'm at a loss as to how to maximize the trade. I've watch my unrealized profit in the position swing from $8500 when sept bonds traded at 111'08 Wednesday morning to $5000 when sept bonds traded at 113 early Thursday morning.

In practice I am a daytrader having found myself in an incredibly profitable swing trade, yet I realize that proper trade management can make or break a trader.
 
Quote from 3dog:



Just curios: where was your original initial stop?
Thanks.

My initial stop was at break even, 118, (give or take a tick or two based on bid/ask spread) given that a break below would signify a break of major support. On trades like this, I expect the trade to be positive right off the bat, and therefore if it didn't go my way, I'd back out immediately and wait for re-confirmation of the breakdown. Fortunately, the breakdown worked like clockwork, and I never had to exit at the initial stop. In fact, I'm still currently short 1/4 of the original position.
 
Quote from spreadem:

Even after much discussion about when to take profits; I, myself am still not sure of how to maximize the realized profits on the current short Sept bond position.

After getting short Sept Bonds at 115'16 on Monday (on what was anticipated as a daytrade) and watching this baby drop off the side of a cliff (... therefore I held short overnight); I'm at a loss as to how to maximize the trade. I've watch my unrealized profit in the position swing from $8500 when sept bonds traded at 111'08 Wednesday morning to $5000 when sept bonds traded at 113 early Thursday morning.

In practice I am a daytrader having found myself in an incredibly profitable swing trade, yet I realize that proper trade management can make or break a trader.

Why not use above todays high so far of 112-22 or overnight 113 area? Also, it may have tipped its hat by opening above yesterdays highs. If it holds 111-03 and I'd watch shorts VERY carefully. If you really want to be long term use 114-21 as a stop which may be TOO wide at this juncture??
 
Quote from spreadem:

Even after much discussion about when to take profits; I, myself am still not sure of how to maximize the realized profits on the current short Sept bond position.

After getting short Sept Bonds at 115'16 on Monday (on what was anticipated as a daytrade) and watching this baby drop off the side of a cliff (... therefore I held short overnight); I'm at a loss as to how to maximize the trade. I've watch my unrealized profit in the position swing from $8500 when sept bonds traded at 111'08 Wednesday morning to $5000 when sept bonds traded at 113 early Thursday morning.

In practice I am a daytrader having found myself in an incredibly profitable swing trade, yet I realize that proper trade management can make or break a trader.

First, ultimately only you can decide what's best for you. As a hardcore swing trader, I would normally recommend the practice of selling halves. However, with the bond trade, there is considerable support at the 109-110 area, so based on the parameters of your trade I would probably sell the position now (as I type we're at 111'25), or move your stop for the whole position to 112 to give a little extra wiggle room if bonds want to continue to move down to the 109 area. However, given how close we are to that area now, the risk/reward wouldn't be significant enough to warrant selling only half now just to try to capture an extra 1-2 points from here on the other half.

Ultimately, if we do get down to the 109-110 area, unless something major happens, I'd expect the support to hold and a decent bounce to occur.
 
quote from zboy2854A:

I have backtested before, and again, it has consistently shown my trading to have benefitted from selling halves than getting out all at once. There were many, many trades where the wiggles would have stopped me out with break even had I held out the whole position for my target, whereas when selling halves my number of net profitable trades increased dramatically.
I second that motion ... bought back one of two bond positions to lock in profits and lowering stop on the only short position.
 
Sept Bonds are still trading in a range of approx 111 to 113 for the last 3 days. Given that the bonds are very oversold, the likelihood is that we may see trading above 113 next week.

Short sellers should be looking at ways to hedge or cover short positions if bond prices should run up to 113, 114 or even 115.

I've employed a strategy of combining my futures position with an option position which results in a hedge to protect from profit erosion.

Any ideas for short hedges?
 
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