Bloomberg special on Naked Short Selling

what internet bashers have done since this began....change the subject.

You sit in front of a keyboard, you have no idea how ruthless these people are when they select the target. Do the companies have blemishes? Sure, that's why they are selected. But Taser? How many other good companies were destoyed for greed?

Many times I hear, "they're all shit companies' name one that makes money. I give you Taser, in the press today and you say, "hey Overstock"..... not about Overstock.

Patrick may well be the worst CEO that ever existed. I'm not qualified to answer that. How ironic he is about to help destroy Wall St. I say "help". They did most of it.

I have battled to many bashers in the past to be much interested with you. It seems, after this many years, all the good ones are working with the Feds. This is all that's left. Really sad.
 
TASR is a one trick pony. When they get a huge order, it goes up,when they get a lawsuit,it goes down.

Tell me, when TASR went from 6.5 to $10 last year, who was losing money? The naked short sellers....

P.S. Of course you couldn't address my points, crybaby... :)
 
Quote from flytiger:

When they do a road sho, the investors politely eat the canapes, and just say, "XXX is involved on the short side. We just can't own this."
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Why? Because they want paper gains, not a real investment. Because they have no intention of owning something that may have been shorted below its liquidation value or intrinsic value. So they are not exactly angels themselves, they want to "invest", have the price pumped up and then take gains.
Also, they do not have the capitalization to take on the naked shorters. But to a real investor, seeing a company artificially depressed below its intrinsic value is like a gift. Buy up the float and cause some real pain to the naked shorters, cause it would be quite hard to play that game when you can prove there is no float. Take it private, fix it up and resend public. Sh*t, the PE firms are doing this with overpriced companies, imagine actually finding a real bargain.

I am not supporting naked shorting, yeah it is a borderline criminal activity. No, I do not expect SEC to do anything about it, because that organization is one big sham anyway.
But to hear the OSTK president whine about it, come on. It's like he thinks OSTK is a $100/share company, cause they barely made money 1 quarter out of like 10.
You wanna be a public company, you gotta be realistic that Wall Street is essentially just a bunch of crooks and paper pushers. And every company mentioned in that documentary is no gem, in fact the only reason they are even being traded is because this is a paper pushing economy.

I mentioned the discussion and I have yet to figure out an answer. If naked shorting is sooo evil, then should the other side be considered just as bad? If someone goes and puts in a bid that is two to three times the float and keeps moving it up, is it manipulation? I'm pretty sure it's not in stocks. Both actions are completely legal in futures trading, by the way.
I also do not see any mention of how these TASR, OSTKs and TZOOs manipulate float to push the stock price up and hurting valid short sellers.

My only real problem behind naked shorting are the logistics behind it and a complete lack of proper math. Maybe the shorting system needs to be redone, because a lot of these overhyped overbought companies are always lacking shares to borrow since too many traders realize what pieces of sh*ts they are. So it's common sense for the big dogs, who are total scum anyway to start breaking the rules, they are shorting on a valid basis, it's just that shares have been made impossible to get. And of course, greed takes over and the practice gets taken to another level. Welcome to capitalism.
 
Quote from Pekelo:

1. If you short too heavy, you also have to cover heavy, thus that action should have a price raising effect. Trying to manipulate a stock was never a riskless activity...
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Not really, that's where musical chairs comes into play. They keep reshorting and pushing the price down further and further to avoid even having losses on paper. And sometimes the company ends up going full BK.

This isn't something you can do with just any company, obviously.
 
I am puzzled that the few of you vehement naked shorting bashers don't have some cause or issue that has a more direct impact on your own lives or is of greater importance to your existence for you to devote this much time, so many words and such a level of excited passion to. I suppose it's remotely possible that you are the CEO of some poor company whose stock price is lower than it once was, meanwhile you are the sole person who feels it is worth more than the current bid and you as the principal insider, the man who ought to know more than anyone else, just can't seem to convince anyone on the street, Wall or Main, that your belief is true and valid. That would make you a pitifully poor salesman, especially if you weigh that against some of what the public is sold every day, i.e. copper bracelets for health, rabbit's feet, DVDs titled "The Secret", the latest herb that increases lifespan, prevents cancer or some other ailment, moonrocks, assorted get rich quick plans, trading systems, phone listings for govt. repo'ed autos or land and houses, penis enlargement pills or pumps, pheromone attraction tinctures, stock tip newsletters, diplomas for cash, palm readings, guaranteed sure-fire pick-up lines, aura cleansings, stunning Russian or Asian brides, instructions on how to market a screenplay or sell your inventions, ginzu knives, insurance at the black-jack table, just being at the black-jack table, handy dandy egg slicers, one-sweeps, robo-vacums, margarine, lottery tickets, slot machines, or just plain old snake-oil.

Seriously though, if you only knew how much money was out there scanning, watching, analyzing, quantifying and waiting to pounce into a stock whose price gets too depressed and is ripe for a squeeze. This two-sided auction market is very efficient and there are many more dollars waiting to buy value than shares that could be sold below it.
 
Quote from Hydroblunt:

My only real problem behind naked shorting are the logistics behind it and a complete lack of proper math. Maybe the shorting system needs to be redone, because a lot of these overhyped overbought companies are always lacking shares to borrow since too many traders realize what pieces of sh*ts they are.
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I completely agree. Also when 120% short is trying to cover 100% existing shares, what happens? That is a giant short squeze..

One could also argue, that naked short sellers help the market darwinism, because they take out the shitty companies faster, thus real investors won't waste their money and time with them....

If we believe that analysts and hedgefunds are watching this market for undervalued stocks, a company's stock shouldn't/couldn't fall below its intrinsic value more than by 10% before the value investors would step in and buy...
 
two sided auction market?

What is you went to an auction, paid 100mm for the mona lisa thinking it was a buy. After they take your infor, another Mona Lisa comes out, and another, and another???

You don't have an auction market when supply is infinite. The markets are more than a few of you with a pitance trading on a daily basis. It is a pool of assets that represent a high percentage of the wealth of the Country. The fact that the edge so many seek goes to the criminal is disturbing and a threat to the wealth of the Country, therefore a threat to the Country. It is more than naked shorting. It is a desire to cheat everyone, to the point of corrupting the very agencies that oversee the system, and pay politicians, oh, I guess you can say campaign contributions, but it's bribery, to look the other way.

A while ago, Matt Goldstein of TheStreet.com wrote about the Naked Shorting of HIbernia Corp. Hibernia was taken over by Cap One and Katrina hit. Some Hedgie had the correct idea that the deal would have to be redone at lower price, and wanted to short Hibernia, but couldn't because the stock was locked up. He naked shorted it. No problem, right? How about the Hibernia stock owned by the State of Louisiana representing the pensions of those people. We called. They figured it cost them 150 Gs. You can rationalize that one hundred ways from Sunday. But, 150 grand was stolen from the Pensioneers of Louisiana.

The branch bends only so far. You've seen it in subprime, and that ain't over yet by a longshot. We are on the verge of a recession and bear market of vast proportions. It will be a crisis of confidence inspired by the amount of disturbing news about to surface.
 
Quote from flytiger:

two sided auction market?

What is you went to an auction, paid 100mm for the mona lisa thinking it was a buy. After they take your infor, another Mona Lisa comes out, and another, and another???
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You analogies carry no relevant logic whatsoever, but here I'll adapt - I will buy all of your masterpieces that you will sell me below value, then ask for more, and still more and more, and then oops..... guess what, another buyer who saw me loading up is here and he wants some too. Next comes another shrewd value player with even bigger pockets, another and another with cash in hand.... next the technical traders start to show up..... soon after that the momo crowd comes along with daytraders in tow....finally a huge crowd is clamoring for your paintings and outbidding each other. What happens next? You are now a buyer too, and you are competing with all the other buyers to lift offers as the price jumps handles at a time until you have covered your last.

What if no one comes to buy you say? Well I guess you are selling it too high then, and in that case I certainly don't want to overpay you. What about the sucker who did buy? He didn't do as much research as you did and you might get paid for it.

Is there anything else that you don't understand about this process?
 
Quote from ElatedMaverick:

I will buy all of your masterpieces that you will sell me below value, then ask for more, and still more and more, and then oops..... guess what, another buyer who saw me loading up is here and he wants some too. Next comes another shrewd value player with even bigger pockets, another and another with cash in hand.... next the technical traders start to show up.....

Why buy today if it's going to be cheaper tomorrow? Every bid is being hit with a flood of counterfeits. Value investors can read a chart too.

What if the entire market is in melt-down mode and nobody is buying? What if it's a repeat of October 1929? Doing away with the necessity for a legitimate borrow sure will be great for the bears... it's free money, just keep selling.

What about developmental stage companies, that IPOed to obtain capital to develop important inventions, you know, like a cure for cancer or AIDS, or a company developing a solution to the energy crisis? What happens when the shares of a company like that are shorted to zero by an infinite supply of shares flooding the market from naked shorting?

Why should developmental stage companies IPO in the US, when they go somewhere like London or Hong Kong and not have to worry about UBS shorting the value of their shares to zero? Maybe that's why the London and Hong Kong exchanges have surpassed US exchanges. And what happens to jobs in the US when developmental stage companies start avoiding US exchanges due to legitimate concerns about fair access to capital and irregular application of sercuities laws?

What if no one comes to buy you say? Well I guess you are selling it too high then, and in that case I certainly don't want to overpay you.

What's the value of something in infinite supply, like the air you breathe or shares that can be sold with no limit as to the amount available?
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