Blame student loans on.....

[VicBee]

Education only adds to the wealth of a country where people are being trained in something that is:
a) actually useful
b) a field of endeavour that they can and will actually participate in
c) Is taught with necessary academic rigour
d) provides more long term wealth than the time they are giving up to study it

Under you idea, we'd have people getting 4 PhD's in underwater basket-weaving and Sanskrit just so that they never have to work a day in their lives.

Free education doesn't mean free living. Lost potential earnings and living are costs that the student has to bare.
Great ideas come from people with multidisciplinary degrees. Today many corporate executives hold JDs and MBAs. The complementary is a value add to the business and, I would say, to society as a whole.

There would be no incentive to ever reject an applicant or fail a student, because the school has no skin in the game. Not only would you massively waste resources, you would also destroy the value of beneficial programs, by subtracting all rigour and selectivity.

I encourage you to check just about every other country in the world. They all provide free education and nothing you suggest happens.

As far as actual facts, the US is a world leader in college education exports. I think the 2019 figure was $44 billion. If you go to a top-tier prestigious school in the US for a useful degree program, you will be surrounded by foreigners.

USnews.com:
Among the international enrollment findings of the annual Open Doors Report: The total number of international students at U.S. universities dropped by 15% from 1,075,496 in 2019-2020 to 914,095 in 2020-2021. The number of new international students enrolling in U.S. universities dropped by 45.6% in that time frame.15 Nov 2021.

Your viewpoint on how much the US values a college education is also similarly bizarre. It doesn't match the facts

Actually, my viewpoint matches the facts that multi generation Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that education is elitist and degrees are a waste of money and are less likely to get a college degrees than recent immigrants who value education above all else.

From census.org

• The percentage of people age 25 and over who had completed less than a high school diploma or equivalent was higher for men (10.6 percent) than for women (9.8 percent).
• Between 2000 and 2018, the percentage of people 25 years and older who had completed a bachelor's degree or higher increased by 9 percentage points, from 25.6 percent to 35.0 percent.
• Among Asians ages 25 to 29 in 2018, almost 7 in 10 (69.5 percent) had a bachelor’s or higher degree. Five years earlier (in 2013), the bachelor’s degree attainment rate for this group was 59 percent.
• Recent immigrants to the United States were more likely to have a college education than earlier immigrants or the native born.

Among immigrants who have arrived since 2000, 38.8 percent have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 35.2 percent of the native-born. Among earlier immigrants, the rate of college education was lower — for those who arrived in the 1990s, it was 31.3 percent.

• Naturalized citizens were among the groups with high levels of college attainment — 38.4 percent had a bachelor’s degree or higher.

The children of immigrants were also likely to have a bachelor’s degree (39.6 percent).

I do think there is going to a crisis in US college education, but it's purely tied to the rising costs of tuition.

The rising cost of tuition in the US is an outrage. In the Bay Area, private high school tuition is around $50k/year, prep college applications run around $20k and private college tuition in the US cost in excess of $80k per year. Add it all up and you better be super wealthy or your kid ultra bright to get full scholarships. It's just not right.

 

[newwurldmn]

This is 100% on government.

There are two key factors:
1 federal student loan guarantees
2 inability to discharge student loans in bankruptcy

Without those two factors, this problem wouldn't exist.

Imagine trying to get a loan for a C student with no assets to get a degree in rural sociology or attic Greek. Private lenders would also be looking at things like the ratio of jobs in a given field to the number of students enrolled in degree programs in that field.

This entire problem could be fixed by allowing students to go bankrupt on student debt and kicking back the remaining balance on the lender.
It would simultaneously fix cost, over enrollment and lack of academic rigor.

Every student would declare bankruptcy the day after they graduate.

 

[tango29]

Change the name of the programs to student debt instead of student aid. Yes they are supposed to read the contracts that spell out they are actually taking on debt, but as with most contracts they skip through and sign on to debt.
We paid for the majority of our kids college costs, one through his Masters, and now the third who chose a local school in the U of Wisconsin system which has tuition that is still fairly reasonable. At the same time I wanted the kids to have skin in the game, and had them go through the FAFSA process, and read those crap contracts and Master Notes. I sat with them and answered questions. The oldest has paid his off 1.5 years after graduation. The second has $21,000 left, and is in a PHd program that is covering his tuition and paying him a stipend to teach and/or do research, but he is sending money each month to pay down his outstanding loans.
Our youngest may get away with us covering his tuition completely due to a significantly cheaper tuition. At the same time he is working and pays his own rent and food(well except when he is here eating).
Too many kids who are getting a chance at college do not have someone sitting them down explaining that these are loans not grants or scholarships. They don't see the impact as they don't even have to start making a payment until after the graduate. I think they should have to start paying in right away to be aware that it isn't free and they need to work.
As always there are kids who need help and starting at a community college, building some skills and cheaper credits would be a good start.
My Dad worked 3 jobs to pay his way through Notre Dame long ago, and he told me I'd need to get a job and pay a part of my bill, and I have passed that idea onto my kids. I am not claiming it is perfect for every kid, but working to earn that degree should be a part of the plan, but doesn't seem to be brought up enough. Instead they sell the loans/student aid b.s. and these kids end up buried in debt. And these University's use it as a way to increase tuition.

 

[engineering]

only regulated markets with strong watchdogs work.
It's due to the greed... what it ca

The problem is specifically due to government intervention. Why do you think a third tier school costs almost exactly as much as a top school?
It's because the gov't will guarantee a loan up to price X, so everybody charges price X.

If private funding was backing these loans without a gov't backstop, they would already be knocking prices down, and eliminating programs that don't lead to real-world jobs. You'd wouldn't be seeing perfectly functional dorms getting knocked down to be replaced by newer more luxurious dorms, and you certainly wouldn't be seeing things like "lazy rivers"...
https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-lure-of-the-lazy-river/

The colleges are building lazy rivers because to gov't is paying for lazy rivers.

Every student would declare bankruptcy the day after they graduate.

Those who couldn't get a job in their field probably would.
And then the bankruptcy judge would require that they pay a reasonable percentage of their income for a reasonable number of years. Imagine what kind of effect that would have on prices.

 

[bone]

Those that pursued STEM degrees generally speaking have an easier time finding employment and long term careers.

Many of the people quoted in these various student loan debt articles seem to have pursued degrees with modest earning potential and career tracks.

 

[bone]

Education should be free, from kindergarten to PhD from state universities, which are subsidized by taxpayers. Education is the foundational wealth of a nation, the greatest elevator to success for all who pursue higher education regardless of social status.

I'm not sure that a BA in Women's and Gender Studies is something that elevates a Western Society. Why should the US Taxpayers pay for degrees that have quite limited employment value? I'd argue that the only degrees that should be taxpayer subsidized are STEM degrees and technical vocational schools.

 

[newwurldmn]

The problem is specifically due to government intervention. Why do you think a third tier school costs almost exactly as much as a top school?
It's because the gov't will guarantee a loan up to price X, so everybody charges price X.

If private funding was backing these loans without a gov't backstop, they would already be knocking prices down, and eliminating programs that don't lead to real-world jobs. You'd wouldn't be seeing perfectly functional dorms getting knocked down to be replaced by newer more luxurious dorms, and you certainly wouldn't be seeing things like "lazy rivers"...
https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-lure-of-the-lazy-river/

The colleges are building lazy rivers because to gov't is paying for lazy rivers.


Those who couldn't get a job in their field probably would.
And then the bankruptcy judge would require that they pay a reasonable percentage of their income for a reasonable number of years. Imagine what kind of effect that would have on prices.

virtually every college student would declare bankruptcy. if i were 22, i would declare bankruptcy the day after i graduate and let all the debts be washed clean. my credit is hurt for 7 years, but with a whole generation of students doing it, it won't affect anyone.

i agree on the government backstop of debt. it is good in that it ensures more affordable interest rates but it creates other perverse incentives.

the cost to teach a student should largely be the same at a third tier school as at a top school i would think. Professors, lab equipment, etc is all the same price and there is no operating leverage practically speaking. A top school should be able to charge more on its brand but that would be uncooth, because... you know education isn't about the finances

 

[murray t turtle]

Blame the government too. They basically told the banks, "you don't have to have any skin in the game and you can lend any amount to anyone who applies for a loan". "Conditions" like that are often abused.

%%
Exactly;
especially the borrowers. Cant really blame the evil empire[Soviet union] for that. WE can surely blame them for much anti-capitalist propaganda, anti-Christian, anti Jewish, anti race strife, anti truth much of the time............................................................................................

 

[Overnight]

...i would declare bankruptcy the day after i graduate and let all the debts be washed clean. my credit is hurt for 7 years, but with a whole generation of students doing it, it won't affect anyone.

In the USA personal bankruptcy is usually filed as a Chapter 7, full discharge of debt. It is a 10-year stain on credit, not 7 years. That would be chapter 13, which is kinda unusual for an individual to choose the "reorganization" route, where some debt will be repaid with existing assets.

 

[VicBee]

Why should the US Taxpayers pay for degrees that have quite limited employment value?

This is the typical one liner argument against free education reflective of how Americans are ultimately all self-absorbed. If it doesn't benefit me, I don't want to pay for it. No sense of community, of a society of people with common goals and interests. Our infrastructure is falling apart? I don't care, I'll just buy a bigger truck but I ain't paying for the roads to be fixed, except maybe the one leading to my house....
Why is free education subject to debate but military spending isn't?
I read @tango29 story about generational loan burdens and, while I can appreciate the lessons on financial responsibility, it is a masterful adjustment to an obligation that shouldn't exist in the first place, because it perpetuates discriminatory practices against those who may not have the same solid middle class upbringing, parents who can contribute to their kids education, parents who have to skills to teach their kids the importance of money management, parents who went to college and thus socialize their kids into going to college. These are the fine expectations of a middle class mindset but not representative of so many kids who want to go to college but simply cannot afford the tuition.
The cost of education in the US is probably the highest in the world and we naturally infer that the higher the cost, the better the education. Understand that this is strictly an American perception because the great universities of the world are free to their nationals who attend because their exam results opened the doors to those institutions of higher learning. European parents and kids of all social levels await exam results with great anxiety because they determine which universities will open their doors to them.
The top 10% Americans know that their kids aren't necessarily the smartest and the financial barrier is a way to filter their kids in while keeping smart but less wealthy kids out.