Blackjack - counting cards
- Thread starter dookie
- Start date
hey resinate...
which will be the popular tables when they are all machines? hmm
which will be the popular tables when they are all machines? hmm
Mojo,
I agree with you. I don't think counting is cheating at all. As someone here mentioned, a simple plus/minus count is not at all difficult...unlike Ken Uston's system, which to me seemed VERY difficult and complex...
Also, as was mentioned, counting cards is not illegal. But the casinos do have the right to chose who they allow to play and who they can refuse to deal to.
As far as signals, I am not sure if that is just a violation of casino policies, or gaming commission rules. But the bottom line is it is not tolerated. Signals using mechanical or electronic means, and "counting machines" I am pretty sure, but not positive, are prosecutable offenses. Collusion with dealers, as you know, is a felony.
Candletrader pointed out that taking away the ability to press up a "rich deck" without constraints is indeed taking away the edge. Exactly right. The house does try to "always win". People's luck is enough to keep them coming back. But statistically, they stand no chance.
CSMs? Someone asked what they are. I had not heard that term used until today, but I can figure out it must mean "card shuffling machines". And yes, they are unpopular with players, and if they are used constantly, then of course they take away any possibility of keeping a running count. I have seen them used even many years ago, but not on a continuous basis. If that is what they are doing with them now, it must be a relatively new practice. When they first started to use them, they were just a way to keep the cards moving. Shuffling 6 decks is very time consuming, and time is money for the casinos. Some casinos used "roving" dealers that would shuffle a shoe so the table dealer did not have to stop the game. When I was on the floor, that was the same thing as a machine really. Just a way to prevent the game from coming to a dead halt after each shoe.
Mojo, when you were a dealer, what did you hear more than "get a roll" or "keep 'em moving"?
Any measures that can be taken to prevent cheating are quickly adapted universally. I don't know if there are any casinos at all anymore (maybe the Horseshoe?) that do not use "insurance mirrors" now, rather than letting the dealer peek. I remember before the mirrors became standard, good tippers (Georges
) pretty much always got the advantage of being either given a card or not when a dealer had a peek. If the dealer was showing a 10 or ace, and saw they were holding a 16 (for example), and the player who was tipping had a 14, they were just not even given a chance to take a "hit" and bust. If the dealer had a 20, and the player had a 17, they were "hit"'. That kind of thing was so common that the mirrors became a big hit with the casino managements overnight. Was it cheating? I guess it was. But it was pretty unstoppable before the mirrors came into vogue.Again, the casinos do everything they can to keep the edge in every way. That is their business. Preventing cheating is also their business.
But the players do have some choices. Single and double deck 21 has always been more popular with players than a 4 or 6 deck shoe. As a dealer, I imagine you probably liked dealing a hand held game better than a shoe as well. More fun, you got to move around, and you got to actually think....it is just more interesting to deal a hand held game. Nothing is more dull than dealing from a shoe...especially dealing face up (which is much more common....do they even deal face down from a shoe at all anymore?). Dealing face up is great for surveillance and great for moronic dealers, but nothing is more boring. Punishment for the "normal" dealers. Sort of like being sent to the "Big Six". I don't think Atlantic City has ever had any hand held games.
When I learned to deal, I always hated 21. I was never good at pushing stacks at the wheel, but used to beg to be put on roulette anyway (even though I did not know all the keys, and never learned except by "on the job" experience..Being put on a dead table, and then getting a few stray players walk up.
Finally I became competent enough to be permanently on dice which was actually fun to deal. Got to work with a crew. Got to talk. Very different from being a 21 robot. It was "liberation".
And of course in those days, tips (tokes) were table by table in dice, so you could "hustle"...unlike 21, where no one could do a thing really, and besides, you had to split tokes with all the 21 dealers.
Sitting "box" was sort of fun. Being on the floor was torture. But the whole Vegas experience, as you know, was a very educational experience. A fun way to piss away a year or so when you are young with no responsibilities. Lot's of hot women, (cocktail waitresses) and all cash income (now they tax every cent, but not back then).
But you gotta be young and able to tolerate a lot of second hand smoke. I got very good at pitching cards from a huge distance when someone lit a cigar. It was comical!! Worst part of being a dealer was being thrown into "soft count". Did you ever have to do that? The WORST!!!
Good job for Gordon Gekko and Aphie. Fun experience for young single guys. No future, but you are only young once.
Peace,
RSAs many of you may already know, my brother got his major financial boost back in the 1970's from card counting. Even today, we are both barred from most casinos. There are many similarities with trading (the "big casino of Wall Street") and playing a game where you can get an edge (like BJ).
Many of our friends, including Blair Hull, were professional card counters at some point in their lives.
"Playing Blackjack as a Business" by Lawrence Revere is a great source.
Don
Not valid, IMHO. This is akin to folding a bad hand in poker or taking a bathroom break during a low blackjack card count.
What about the ante, you say? To which I say, what about the DSL charges?
I played blackjack for a little over two years and did well. Finally the casino where I played got sick of me and I was "terminated" from my position. I never made 100 grand a year but did ok. There are similarities between blackjack and trading but I would agree with another poster who said that poker is more similar to trading than blackjack.
First of all to trade or play blackjack and make money you need a system that has a positive expectation. In blackjack there are several, I used a 2 level count called omega 2. The high low is almost as good and a lot easier to use. In trading I believe there are many good positive EV systems and I believe I have developed one. Although with stock market systems I think it is much harder to determine precisely what your expected value is.
In blackjack you can learn one of the existing systems and get some blackjack analysis software, program your table conditions and it will give you all the stats like win rate per hour and your chance of going broke given a certain bankroll and betting scheme.
Second similarity is that you need to know your system and be able to follow it and believe in it. You can lose 5 big bets in a row then the count drops, you bet $2 and get a blackjack. This happens all the time but in the long run these BJ systems work. The next time your systems says bet big , then you bet big , even if you lost the last 10 big bets in a row. Same thing with a trading system. If you determine that the S&P futures are a buy at 1002.50 and your system says to put your stop at 998.50 and it drops to 998.50 then you sell, even if the market rallies soon thereafter. You cannot feel bad or override your system, if it is in fact tested to have a positive expectation.
Third You have to bet within your bankroll. I know a person who I used to play with. He could count down a deck faster than me and he knew every obscure index number where I only concentrated on the important ones. The only thing he couldn't do that well was make money. He would never bet on a disadvantage situation but would bet out of proportion to his bankroll. I saw him start with 2000 and only have 70 left. I went to another table for awhile and when I returned found out that he had ran that 70 bucks back to his original 2000. He was betting 3 hands of 100 in advantage situations. He continued to bet in this absurd manner and soo lost it all. This pattern or a similar one was repeated time and time again. In the markets there are no signs saying "Maximum 100" so you have to be especially vigilant.
Forth you have to be mentally in the correct frame of mind. You cannot be drinking or high or have some stressful situation like a bad day at work or a bad relationship interfering with your thinking. You need to concentrate your mental energy on the task at hand, weather it be trading or blackjack.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
First of all to trade or play blackjack and make money you need a system that has a positive expectation. In blackjack there are several, I used a 2 level count called omega 2. The high low is almost as good and a lot easier to use. In trading I believe there are many good positive EV systems and I believe I have developed one. Although with stock market systems I think it is much harder to determine precisely what your expected value is.
In blackjack you can learn one of the existing systems and get some blackjack analysis software, program your table conditions and it will give you all the stats like win rate per hour and your chance of going broke given a certain bankroll and betting scheme.
Second similarity is that you need to know your system and be able to follow it and believe in it. You can lose 5 big bets in a row then the count drops, you bet $2 and get a blackjack. This happens all the time but in the long run these BJ systems work. The next time your systems says bet big , then you bet big , even if you lost the last 10 big bets in a row. Same thing with a trading system. If you determine that the S&P futures are a buy at 1002.50 and your system says to put your stop at 998.50 and it drops to 998.50 then you sell, even if the market rallies soon thereafter. You cannot feel bad or override your system, if it is in fact tested to have a positive expectation.
Third You have to bet within your bankroll. I know a person who I used to play with. He could count down a deck faster than me and he knew every obscure index number where I only concentrated on the important ones. The only thing he couldn't do that well was make money. He would never bet on a disadvantage situation but would bet out of proportion to his bankroll. I saw him start with 2000 and only have 70 left. I went to another table for awhile and when I returned found out that he had ran that 70 bucks back to his original 2000. He was betting 3 hands of 100 in advantage situations. He continued to bet in this absurd manner and soo lost it all. This pattern or a similar one was repeated time and time again. In the markets there are no signs saying "Maximum 100" so you have to be especially vigilant.
Forth you have to be mentally in the correct frame of mind. You cannot be drinking or high or have some stressful situation like a bad day at work or a bad relationship interfering with your thinking. You need to concentrate your mental energy on the task at hand, weather it be trading or blackjack.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
TKO: CSM stands for Continuous Shuffle Machine. After each round the dealer puts the discards back in the machine and the count reverts back to zero effectively eliminating the counters advantage.
Don B: Revere' s book is a good read but was designed in a different era. The age of single deck. Some of the index values in his book are probably not accurate. Now with the PC and current versions of blackjack software it is possible to create a more accurate index table and betting strategy. Still it is a good book on the topic and I have a copy myself.
Candletrader: the casinos are not interested in removing the fat-tail returns as you put it. This is what keeps the gamblers coming back. The casinos are interested in removing people who have a mathematical advantage over them. Despite the fact that I had many large swings , the average bettor had swings almost as large as mine. The thing is I had a few more positive ones.
Barring: Counting is not illegal but the casinos can use the trespass act to evict anyone and do not have to give a reason. In my opinion a mechanical counting device, and the logistics associated with using them , would be more of a hindrance. The system I use is very good at identifying advantage situations
larryl: which will be the popular tables? All of them , look at all the new games coming out , like three card poker, let it ride , and extreme 21. The house edge on these games is enormous yet people are lining up to get a seat at these new games.
Blackjack future: It is sad to see this game deteriorate but when fall comes and an all the flowers die there will be a spring and a new set of lowers springing up. This new flower is called poker and I belive it to be the next frontier. I am by no means a winning player yet but think that this game, especially holdem has a lot of potential.
Don B: Revere' s book is a good read but was designed in a different era. The age of single deck. Some of the index values in his book are probably not accurate. Now with the PC and current versions of blackjack software it is possible to create a more accurate index table and betting strategy. Still it is a good book on the topic and I have a copy myself.
Candletrader: the casinos are not interested in removing the fat-tail returns as you put it. This is what keeps the gamblers coming back. The casinos are interested in removing people who have a mathematical advantage over them. Despite the fact that I had many large swings , the average bettor had swings almost as large as mine. The thing is I had a few more positive ones.
Barring: Counting is not illegal but the casinos can use the trespass act to evict anyone and do not have to give a reason. In my opinion a mechanical counting device, and the logistics associated with using them , would be more of a hindrance. The system I use is very good at identifying advantage situations
larryl: which will be the popular tables? All of them , look at all the new games coming out , like three card poker, let it ride , and extreme 21. The house edge on these games is enormous yet people are lining up to get a seat at these new games.
Blackjack future: It is sad to see this game deteriorate but when fall comes and an all the flowers die there will be a spring and a new set of lowers springing up. This new flower is called poker and I belive it to be the next frontier. I am by no means a winning player yet but think that this game, especially holdem has a lot of potential.
does anyone actually know how to count cards? does anyone have a system for that or know where someone could learn it?
i never actually searched for it, but i would be curious to hear from someone where i could find out more about it. Sounds like an interesting thing to know. Even though, i have blackjack!!!
i never actually searched for it, but i would be curious to hear from someone where i could find out more about it. Sounds like an interesting thing to know. Even though, i have blackjack!!!