Black Monday

[volpunter]

You talk about things you know obviously nothing about. Equally the US federal government imposes rules and laws on states what they can do and not do. Gay marriage was such issue, cannabis, and many other issues. If a state disagrees it can challenge federal laws and guidelines all the way up to supreme court, a route which was often taken. The same institutions exist in the euro zone. You cant hold a referendum each time a decision is to be made, that is why political representatives are voted into power in each nation that represent domestic interests in Euro group negotiations. And then there is always the opportunity to settle things in multiple european legislative branches. Again, you can't blame Germany for having more votes and seats than for example Austria. Every member nation agreed on how seats and votes are to be distributed with the signatures of their statesmen which are legally binding.

I claim that one of the biggest lies and ghosts that UK leaders shower on their people is that Germany attempts to rearm and control Europe or the rest of the world. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even Japan now debates a change of its constitution to rearm to face new military challenges. Germany has never attempted such and does not plan to do so. Germany has often meaningfully participated in peace keeping missions around the world and that was it. Other than that Germany just takes the right to economically operate and manufacture products the rest of the world wants to buy. Maybe that is an issue for your people but certainly Germany does not hold anyone hostage , it just wants to make and sell the cars that you Brits and everyone else so much love. Any Euro zone country can exit and leave the common currency at any point in time. There are no penalties imposed whatsoever. But you gotta accept that such choice comes with consequences and Greece is at its own peril if it decides to leave the euro. I am not sure where you get the idea from that Germany is forcing anyone to do anything. You can't blame a creditor for imposing his contractual right to collect debt. The creditor has a unilateral right to decide whether debt forgiveness or debt collection is more beneficial to the creditor. Let's keep on mind that Greece has already been granted uncountable hair cuts, debt forgiveness, and more favorable interest and repayment terms than any other European country ever has. Solidarity is a two sided coin. You can see that aside France most other Eurozone members are much less inclined to help Greece anymore than Germany is. I know you Brits love paint the German devil on every wall there is and you can do so in every building of yours but you will also get a lot of raised eyebrows and lack of support , something Cameron had to face up to in his latest weird speeches and demands from the rest of Europe.

Exactly, states are "granted the right" to impose certain state laws and run their own budgets but in europe the eu is granted the right to impose rules and is given a budget by nations, not states, when push comes to shove its never going to work. I like your little dig though its irrelevent to any one with real world expereince, if they were beaten hands down in a week or a multi year war that involved the entire world the """"""" put people in ovens, the cause for concern remains the same yet you need no cause for concern when it comes to maintaining sovereignty its something that needs to be protected in its natural right. I never said it is going to end soon, stop putting words in my mouth, I said the ever closer union requirement will bring about its end.

 

[sheda]

Please do not make me laugh with your distorted history lesson. France was occupied, Russia would have been defeated and GB was shortly before being invaded and defeated with ground to ground missiles and an advanced nuclear program something GB was not even close to. If the US did not step in the UK would never have been a Victor and in effect it never was. Your country was liberated by the US. At least face up to historical facts not British anecdotes.

Do point out, infact directly quote my "distorted history lesson" you seem fairly obessed with telling us the nazis woulda won I tell you!!! if it werent for those pesky americans!!...All I said was every nation in their right mind killed as many germans as possible hence we have peace and while the majortiy of europe has fallen to some ill even in the last 100 years britain has not (which gives it a totally different mind set when it comes to european intergration) if britain won on its own, with the help of the free world or the teletubbies is irrelevant, its not a point for the ego to rub its self on unless appareantly you are a german...it won because it had no choice but to fight and that was the outcome.

germany did rebuild after it learned to stop trying to dominate the world and getting its self destroyed in the process, the
hypocrisy when it comes to its past and debt forgiveness is mind boggling now i am sure we both have more productive things to do than further this platform for you to display your rapid german pride, if you firmly belive in the euro and everything it stands for then you have nothing to worry about or defend, its not a joke even if you did let a load of "backward shitholes" in

 

[volpunter]

Absolutely my friend. I am not worried in the slightest and yes I steadfastly believe that Europe is a safer place and fostered an immense rise in living standards in most european nations over the past 20 years because of European integration. This has nothing to do with Germany itself nor with the UK. Bicker as much as you like I don't care. I have done my history homework and studies of economics which I don't think can be said about the average British citizen. The only issue I cannot wrap my head around is what else the UK has to sell aside toxic financial products. I pray and hope that the few innovative shops on the Isle get to make useful products out of their ideas and research. Let's agree to disagree on the European experiment. Great thing is you and your people can stay outside and leave altogether very soon. What Europe needs and has is plenty people who want to succeed together and not those who seem to let the constant rain and grey skies get the better of them and let it feed into a constant complaining mindset. But the message came out very clearly: that you seem to have huge issues to come to grips with that the UK is not the major economic power in Europe anymore but that it is Germany. Good thing is that due to a different political framework this economic power feeds into a way more balanced society with a way lower divergence between the rich and poor than what is going on in the UK. Cheers.

Do point out, infact directly quote my "distorted history lesson" you seem fairly obessed with telling us the nazis woulda won I tell you!!! if it werent for those pesky americans!!...All I said was every nation in their right mind killed as many germans as possible hence we have peace and while the majortiy of europe has fallen to some ill even in the last 100 years britain has not (which gives it a totally different mind set when it comes to european intergration) if britain won on its own, with the help of the free world or the teletubbies is irrelevant, its not a point for the ego to rub its self on unless appareantly you are a german...it won because it had no choice but to fight and that was the outcome.

germany did rebuild after it learned to stop trying to dominate the world and getting its self destroyed in the process, the
hypocrisy when it comes to its past and debt forgiveness is mind boggling now i am sure we both have more productive things to do than further this platform for you to display your rapid german pride, if you firmly belive in the euro and everything it stands for then you have nothing to worry about or defend, its not a joke even if you did let a load of "backward shitholes" in

 

[sheda]

I am not worried in the slightest and yes I steadfastly believe that Europe is a safer place and fostered an immense rise in living standards in most european nations over the past 20 years because of European integration.

European cooperation has done great things which makes it all the more of a shame to see the damage inflicted to lives, economies and attitudes towards eachother as a direct result of the greed and incompetence surrounding the euro.

Bicker as much as you like I don't care. I have don't my history homework which I don't think can be said about the average British citizen.

I asked you to quote my "distorted history lesson" all you have done is got some kind of ego trip by claiming britain did not actually win the war:S.

The only issue I cannot wrap my head around is what else the UK has to sell aside toxic financial products. I pray and hope that the few innovative shops on the Isle get to make useful products out of their ideas and research. Let's agree to disagree on the European experiment. Great thing is you and your people can stay outside and leave altogether very soon..

Thank you that is very considerate of you, though we have "just another currency" and we are not special, it only dates back over a thousand years and is the oldest currency in use, I belive the country is doing alright with its financial center (something germany is keen to destroy so it can become one) aerospace automative and pharmaceutical industrys, its not a bad life here and in the coming refuredum we will most likely be voting to stay, the process of leaving is on a slightly longer time frame and the eu will be unwinding around it, with what, a record number of seats (228 out of 751) in the hands of far-right/far-left parties that condemn the eu already, tick tock.

What Europe needs and has is plenty people who want to succeed together and not those who seem to let the constant rain and grey skies get the better of them and let it feed into a constant complaining mindset. But the message came out very clearly: that you seem to have huge issues to come to grips with that the UK is not the major economic power in Europe anymore but that it is Germany.

You make it sound like such a nice big admirable family (unless you happen to be a greek) but like any family when the good times are up the real cracks and splits in relationships come to light, as you said the uk has maneuvered itself to the fringes from the very beginning, why would it be of concern that it is no longer a force in europe? Being "just another" country with "just another" currency and not being very special at all is fine, brits just want to live their lives without interfence, its a weight off your shoulders when you no longer have something to prove, it appears the german way is to scream how special we really are..

Good thing is that due to a different political framework this economic power feeds into a way more balanced society with a way lower divergence between the rich and poor than what is going on in the UK. Cheers.

HYSTERICALLY laughable when taking divergence in the eurozone into account which is why, long term, the euro is doomed, naturally when it comes to it you cant see beyond your own borders and far from succeeding with the intergration needed to stop several members leaving in the coming years you prefer to call them savages and claim they deserve it which is just an example of the tension that will rip your european dream apart.

 

[volpunter]

European cooperation has done great things which makes it all the more of a shame to see the damage inflicted to lives, economies and attitudes towards eachother as a direct result of the greed and incompetence surrounding the euro.

How are you not directly contradicting yourself here? It has done great things but has inflicted damage on peoples' lives? Here a rather simplistic but nonetheless true to the facts summary for people with a simple mind: http://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegatio.../how_the_eu_single_market_benefits_you_sq.pdf


I asked you to quote my "distorted history lesson" all you have done is got some kind of ego trip by claiming britain did not actually win the war:S.

Your distorted history lesson is that you keep on claiming Germany tries to destroy the UK, its financial system, Germany tries to dominate Europe. It is utter nonsense. None of your claims are in any way supported by facts. Quite the contrary. There is a lot of evidence that points to the fact that Germany feels rather very uncomfortable in any sort of leadership role, even on an economic stage. Germany never took over a leadership role where it was not either chosen to do so or justified by its economic leadership in Europe. Yet every Englishman learns early on how Germany attempts to gain world domination and attempts to subdue everyone else. Utter nonsense.

Thank you that is very considerate of you, though we have "just another currency" and we are not special, it only dates back over a thousand years and is the oldest currency in use, I belive the country is doing alright with its financial center (something germany is keen to destroy so it can become one) aerospace automative and pharmaceutical industrys, its not a bad life here and in the coming refuredum we will most likely be voting to stay, the process of leaving is on a slightly longer time frame and the eu will be unwinding around it, with what, a record number of seats (228 out of 751) in the hands of far-right/far-left parties that condemn the eu already, tick tock.

You keep on digging in the past my friend, what good does it do the UK how long its currency has been in existence? Again, Germany has zero interest in destroying London's financial market. But to be part of Europe and gain benefits in other sectors the UK had to give something. What the UK offered was minimal to nothing, hence most of the postulations by UK representatives fell on deaf ears in Europe. Automotive industry? Which one? Ford? Isn't that American? ;-) Aston Martin and its how many thousand car sales per year? Aerospace? BAE and Airbus (formerly EADS) closely cooperate despite a blown merger, hard to tell which one is British dominated, which one is more central European. Certainly standards of living are not bad in the UK, given one gets used to buying canned and frozen food in Tescos (vs mega marts with multi aisles of fresh produce at most averager German supermarkets), fish and chips, greasy breakfast, and otherwise blown-out-of-proportion real estate prices that favor super rich cronies of Russian, Chinese, and African oligarchs/ dictators rather than protecting its own citizens. Add to that the average weather in the UK and I bet one can spend a pretty cosy life on the sofa watching BBC and eating potato chips. UK standard of living is not even in the top 3 in Europe (4th rank, shared with several other countries), Luxembourg and Germany rank 1 and 2, respectively. Probably an overestimate as it was researched by your home paper: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/11/uk-living-standards-eu


You make it sound like such a nice big admirable family (unless you happen to be a greek) but like any family when the good times are up the real cracks and splits in relationships come to light, as you said the uk has maneuvered itself to the fringes from the very beginning, why would it be of concern that it is no longer a force in europe? Being "just another" country with "just another" currency and not being very special at all is fine, brits just want to live their lives without interfence, its a weight off your shoulders when you no longer have something to prove, it appears the german way is to scream how special we really are..

It is a pretty admirable family. Those who partied and overspent were allowed to do so but also had to wake up to economic realities and made the conscious decision to clean up house. The only bully in the family who abused everyone else has to now make a decision to stay in the family and adhere to agreed upon house rules or has to fuck off. Simple as that, house rules are house rules. Bending the rules a bit here and there is something everyone was allowed to do every now and then but living at the expense of everyone else is not sustainable. Greece, clean house or fuck off.

HYSTERICALLY laughable when taking divergence in the eurozone into account which is why, long term, the euro is doomed, naturally when it comes to it you cant see beyond your own borders and far from succeeding with the intergration needed to stop several members leaving in the coming years you prefer to call them savages and claim they deserve it which is just an example of the tension that will rip your european dream apart

You twist my words. I clearly referred to Germany and how the divergence between rich and poor is much lower in Germany than in the UK. Social stability is way higher in Germany and wealth more equally distributed than in the UK. What will happen in the long term? Who knows, you certainly do not and neither do I. For now Europe and the integration of many aspects of our lives has proven beneficial to most, most of which we have not even touched on: Freedom of travel, residence, work (Schengen Agreement), free movement of goods, larger consumer choices, cross-border services, free flow of capital, unified currency and payment systems, safety of goods regulations, food safety, harmonized legislation, social security standards, better and more powerful protection from outside threats, intra Europe fostering of fair competition (remember how old national telecom and utility monopolies dominated each national market? In Germany or France you can nowadays chose from dozens of internet, gas, electricity providers), protection of freedom. There are many challenges ahead but the achievements so far should rather be celebrated than frowned upon.

 

[sheda]

How are you not directly contradicting yourself here? It has done great things but has inflicted damage on peoples' lives? Here a rather simplistic but nonetheless true to the facts summary for people with a simple mind.

Has the full extent of european cooperation been just the euro? No? And you say I have a simple mind? The removal of tarriffs, harmonized standards, free movement of peoples (to a point) etc has done great things for europe, but the euro has not..how is that a condradiction?

Your distorted history lesson is that you keep on claiming Germany tries to destroy the UK, its financial system, Germany tries to dominate Europe. It is utter nonsense. None of your claims are in any way supported by facts. Quite the contrary.

If killing millions of people including tens of thousands of brits, bombing and wanting to invade the country in two world wars does not meet your definitions of wanting to dominate and destroy then you have a problem, I will ask you again to please quote my distorted history lesson from my own text, may I remind you that your first mention of "distroted history" was to tell us Britain never really won the war...history being history is past tense, remember that.

There is a lot of evidence that points to the fact that Germany feels rather very uncomfortable in any sort of leadership role, even on an economic stage. Germany never took over a leadership role where it was not either chosen to do so or justified by its economic leadership in Europe. Yet every Englishman learns early on how Germany attempts to gain world domination and attempts to subdue everyone else. Utter nonsense.

Otherwise known as historical fact. Germany does not appear to be very uncomfortable in its leadership role as the leading beneficiary of the euro, I must note.

You keep on digging in the past my friend, what good does it do the UK how long its currency has been in existence?

Its perfectly legitimate to remind you how long sterlin has stood the test of time when you refer to it with an inferior tone, more than one empire has fallen in its time but you have all the cause to feel smug with your 16 year old crisis currency I guess?

Again, Germany has zero interest in destroying London's financial market. But to be part of Europe and gain benefits in other sectors the UK had to give something. What the UK offered was minimal to nothing.

If germany has no interest in damaging london it can stick the ftt where the sun does not shine, but do tell, outside of the billions a year in payments what does britian have to give germany and why?

Automotive industry? Which one? Ford? Isn't that American? ;-) Aston Martin and its how many thousand car sales per year?....

• The UK is home to:
  • Seven volume car manufacturers.
  • Seven commercial vehicle manufacturers.
  • Nine bus and coach manufacturers.
  • Eight major premium and sports car producers, and over 100 specialist brands.
  • Eight Formula One teams.
• Over 1.5 million vehicles and 2.5 million engines are produced in the UK each year.
• Car manufacturing volumes are on course to break all-time records by 2017.
• Vehicle manufacturers in the UK export around 80% of production.

• Around 2,350 UK companies regard themselves as ‘automotive’ suppliers, employing around 82,000 people.

It may not be on par with germany, and what? Life and industry arent a popularity contest, we arent in the business of having to prove how much the sunshines out of our a** but then again we arent shouldering the past you are.

Those who partied and overspent were allowed to do so....

So much for the rules..yes they were ALLOWED to do so without sanction hence my orginal omment calling the euro and eu a joke

Bending the rules a bit here and there is something everyone was allowed to do every now and then but living at the expense of everyone else is not sustainable. Greece, clean house or fuck off.

Again hysterical, as germany free rides the euro as a mechanism for maintaining a weak exchange rate shifting the costs of doing so to its neighbors, its funny how fast you announce the success of the german economy, the powerhouse of europe! yet you totally overlook the fact that the appreciation that would be produced by the competitiveness of that economy is offset by the opposite pressures from the less competitive euro members such as greece, the effect of the euro is to keep the german exchange rate undervalued at the expense of forcing overvaluation on peripheral members, germany is wiling to keep greece in the euro even if it defaults infact germanys worst nightmare is that greece leaves the currency and prospers because we all know what would follow. 25% greek unemployment, about as high as the worst months of americas great depression, not a problem! Millions of people in spain greece portugal suffering, its ok! Is monetary policy going to be catered to these people or to the dominate “power house economy” of europe? Well we wouldt want to make the germans mad again would we...

You twist my words. I clearly referred to Germany and how the divergence between rich and poor is much lower in Germany than in the UK. Social stability is way higher in Germany and wealth more equally distributed than in the UK.

I dont twist your words, I point out the flaw in your logic and a reason the euro will ultimately fail, you needed to control greek spending escpecially in light of the pressures the euro was putting on it, you had to make sure it adhered to the rules but instead of doing so and setting an example to the rest of the zone germany and france were the first to break them! Instead of bailouts you need benefit payments from germany to greece, you need to subsidize greece and any underperfoming country to prevent the kind of extreme divergence we see in europe right now. But thats not going to happen and hence the eurozone will not remain, germans boom at the expense of the rest is not suistainable.

The eu has become the biggest threat to democracy and unity in europe but it did achive a lot before it got to that stage, I understand you have had your german pride challanged hence our lengthy and pointless debate here. When I said the eu and euro is a joke I was refering to a very very small group of people, not nations but to you the eu is germany so you must defend. Neither of us know exactly what will happen but its obvious the british and the germans are very different..the eu, a huge state with controls and legislation reaching into every part of ones lives is very appealing to a german but to a brit its a nightmare, you may conclude thats because we are all "littler brits" and in doing so give another example of why the experiment is doomed...

 

[volpunter]

Sheda, when you return to 2015 from your 65 year trip in the time travel machine then we can talk again. But I do not debate with someone who chooses to be stuck in 1945. If you cannot accept that Germany has apologized, has completed its post war reparations, has influenced each new generation of Germans to never forget what its forefathers have done, has created a constitution that does not allow for mistakes of such magnitude to ever be repeated...if you simply refuse reality and facts then I will stop to debate with you at this point because we need to at least have a minimum of common ground.

How are you not directly contradicting yourself here? It has done great things but has inflicted damage on peoples' lives? Here a rather simplistic but nonetheless true to the facts summary for people with a simple mind.

Has the full extent of european cooperation been just the euro? No? And you say I have a simple mind? The removal of tarriffs, harmonized standards, free movement of peoples (to a point) etc has done great things for europe, but the euro has not..how is that a condradiction?

Your distorted history lesson is that you keep on claiming Germany tries to destroy the UK, its financial system, Germany tries to dominate Europe. It is utter nonsense. None of your claims are in any way supported by facts. Quite the contrary.

If killing millions of people including tens of thousands of brits, bombing and wanting to invade the country in two world wars does not meet your definitions of wanting to dominate and destroy then you have a problem, I will ask you again to please quote my distorted history lesson from my own text, may I remind you that your first mention of "distroted history" was to tell us Britain never really won the war...history being history is past tense, remember that.

There is a lot of evidence that points to the fact that Germany feels rather very uncomfortable in any sort of leadership role, even on an economic stage. Germany never took over a leadership role where it was not either chosen to do so or justified by its economic leadership in Europe. Yet every Englishman learns early on how Germany attempts to gain world domination and attempts to subdue everyone else. Utter nonsense.

Otherwise known as historical fact. Germany does not appear to be very uncomfortable in its leadership role as the leading beneficiary of the euro, I must note.

You keep on digging in the past my friend, what good does it do the UK how long its currency has been in existence?

Its perfectly legitimate to remind you how long sterlin has stood the test of time when you refer to it with an inferior tone, more than one empire has fallen in its time but you have all the cause to feel smug with your 16 year old crisis currency I guess?

Again, Germany has zero interest in destroying London's financial market. But to be part of Europe and gain benefits in other sectors the UK had to give something. What the UK offered was minimal to nothing.

If germany has no interest in damaging london it can stick the ftt where the sun does not shine, but do tell, outside of the billions a year in payments what does britian have to give germany and why?

Automotive industry? Which one? Ford? Isn't that American? ;-) Aston Martin and its how many thousand car sales per year?....

• The UK is home to:
  • Seven volume car manufacturers.
  • Seven commercial vehicle manufacturers.
  • Nine bus and coach manufacturers.
  • Eight major premium and sports car producers, and over 100 specialist brands.
  • Eight Formula One teams.
• Over 1.5 million vehicles and 2.5 million engines are produced in the UK each year.
• Car manufacturing volumes are on course to break all-time records by 2017.
• Vehicle manufacturers in the UK export around 80% of production.

• Around 2,350 UK companies regard themselves as ‘automotive’ suppliers, employing around 82,000 people.

It may not be on par with germany, and what? Life and industry arent a popularity contest, we arent in the business of having to prove how much the sunshines out of our a** but then again we arent shouldering the past you are.

Those who partied and overspent were allowed to do so....

So much for the rules..yes they were ALLOWED to do so without sanction hence my orginal omment calling the euro and eu a joke

Bending the rules a bit here and there is something everyone was allowed to do every now and then but living at the expense of everyone else is not sustainable. Greece, clean house or fuck off.

Again hysterical, as germany free rides the euro as a mechanism for maintaining a weak exchange rate shifting the costs of doing so to its neighbors, its funny how fast you announce the success of the german economy, the powerhouse of europe! yet you totally overlook the fact that the appreciation that would be produced by the competitiveness of that economy is offset by the opposite pressures from the less competitive euro members such as greece, the effect of the euro is to keep the german exchange rate undervalued at the expense of forcing overvaluation on peripheral members, germany is wiling to keep greece in the euro even if it defaults infact germanys worst nightmare is that greece leaves the currency and prospers because we all know what would follow. 25% greek unemployment, about as high as the worst months of americas great depression, not a problem! Millions of people in spain greece portugal suffering, its ok! Is monetary policy going to be catered to these people or to the dominate “power house economy” of europe? Well we wouldt want to make the germans mad again would we...

You twist my words. I clearly referred to Germany and how the divergence between rich and poor is much lower in Germany than in the UK. Social stability is way higher in Germany and wealth more equally distributed than in the UK.

I dont twist your words, I point out the flaw in your logic and a reason the euro will ultimately fail, you needed to control greek spending escpecially in light of the pressures the euro was putting on it, you had to make sure it adhered to the rules but instead of doing so and setting an example to the rest of the zone germany and france were the first to break them! Instead of bailouts you need benefit payments from germany to greece, you need to subsidize greece and any underperfoming country to prevent the kind of extreme divergence we see in europe right now. But thats not going to happen and hence the eurozone will not remain, germans boom at the expense of the rest is not suistainable.

The eu has become the biggest threat to democracy and unity in europe but it did achive a lot before it got to that stage, I understand you have had your german pride challanged hence our lengthy and pointless debate here. When I said the eu and euro is a joke I was refering to a very very small group of people, not nations but to you the eu is germany so you must defend. Neither of us know exactly what will happen but its obvious the british and the germans are very different..the eu, a huge state with controls and legislation reaching into every part of ones lives is very appealing to a german but to a brit its a nightmare, you may conclude thats because we are all "littler brits" and in doing so give another example of why the experiment is doomed...

 

[sheda]

I had a feeling you would play that card, accepting or refusing to accept that germany said "sorry" does not change the fact europe is dominated in 2015 by a fiscal policy and currency that benefits them at the expense of millions, does it. If you want to use that bizzare reasoning to end the dissuccsion then thats fine with me.

 

[samuel11]

I'm just reading and eating popcorn It's definitely an id 10T conversation

 

[volpunter]

Who is "them"? Are you suggesting Germany is benefiting at the expense of the rest of Europe and "millions" are suffering for the benefit of Germans?

I had a feeling you would play that card, accepting or refusing to accept that germany said "sorry" does not change the fact europe is dominated in 2015 by a fiscal policy and currency that benefits them at the expense of millions, does it. If you want to use that bizzare reasoning to end the dissuccsion then thats fine with me.