Climate change has a new evangelist: Big oil.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-oil-rolls-al-gore-154141706.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-oil-rolls-al-gore-154141706.html
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Big Oil Rolls Out Al Gore to Torpedo Ethanol
- Thread starter Banjo
- Start date
The U.S. Ethanol mandate never made sense from an energy balance standpoint so long as the ethanol comes from corn.. The decision to mandate 10% ethanol was a political one, not scientifically supported unless the ethanol comes from cane.
Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) makes much more sense in terms of energy balance, however, if the ethanol comes from sugar cane. There was extensive scientific testimony to this point, but it was largely ignored by Congress. Grassley (Iowa) was an influential force behind pushing the ethanol mandate through.
One consideration, when ethanol combustion is not complete, formaldehyde is a by product. This should not be a problem in engines properly tuned for burning ethanol. Brazil uses a tremendous amount of sugar cane ethanol in cars. Cuba could do the same thing and may be for all I know. Ethanol does not produce as much energy per gallon as gasoline.
Brazil's cars are all flex-fuel cars and run on any mix of ethanol and gasoline from 100% ethanol down to 18%. E25 fuel (25% ethanol) would be more or less typical.
The energy balance for cane ethanol is about 8. Meaning about 8 times more energy out than energy in to produce. These numbers are difficult to estimate with accuracy. The official ratio for cane to corn energy balance is seven. Cane being 7 times greater than corn. Competing cane ethanol was kept out of the U.S. with a tariff.
When alcohol is blended with gasoline, anhydrous (dry) ethanol is used. Drying alcohol adds about 15% to its cost. When 100% ethanol (E100) is burned, it is not necessary to dry the ethanol (95% ethanol, 5 % water).
Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) makes much more sense in terms of energy balance, however, if the ethanol comes from sugar cane. There was extensive scientific testimony to this point, but it was largely ignored by Congress. Grassley (Iowa) was an influential force behind pushing the ethanol mandate through.
One consideration, when ethanol combustion is not complete, formaldehyde is a by product. This should not be a problem in engines properly tuned for burning ethanol. Brazil uses a tremendous amount of sugar cane ethanol in cars. Cuba could do the same thing and may be for all I know. Ethanol does not produce as much energy per gallon as gasoline.
Brazil's cars are all flex-fuel cars and run on any mix of ethanol and gasoline from 100% ethanol down to 18%. E25 fuel (25% ethanol) would be more or less typical.
The energy balance for cane ethanol is about 8. Meaning about 8 times more energy out than energy in to produce. These numbers are difficult to estimate with accuracy. The official ratio for cane to corn energy balance is seven. Cane being 7 times greater than corn. Competing cane ethanol was kept out of the U.S. with a tariff.
When alcohol is blended with gasoline, anhydrous (dry) ethanol is used. Drying alcohol adds about 15% to its cost. When 100% ethanol (E100) is burned, it is not necessary to dry the ethanol (95% ethanol, 5 % water).
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Perfect example of crony capitalism at work. Greedy farmers got Grassley and others to force this mandate on us. Of course, as pie noted, they also blocked the idea that made some sense, using cane sugar. Cane sugar can be grown very cheaply in the caribbean, so we would have been helping them as well. Instead, we block imported sugar to benefit greedy sugar barons in flroida. Then we add to the problem by using corn to produce ethanol.
You would have to work extremely hard to come up with a worse set of policies. Bad for everyone, eg consumers, environment, poor people in caribbean, but fattens wallets of Iowa farmers.
This is the kind of thing that exposes all the hypocrisy in the republican party.
You would have to work extremely hard to come up with a worse set of policies. Bad for everyone, eg consumers, environment, poor people in caribbean, but fattens wallets of Iowa farmers.
This is the kind of thing that exposes all the hypocrisy in the republican party.
big ag bilked billions out of tax payers... and they drove up food prices with this scheme. but the insurance companys got medicare part d and obamacare.
and wall street got their bailouts and so did the unions.
the cronies rotate lap dog politicians to run their scams to steal more money or more freedom ... see sawing back and forth between the democrats or the republicans.
you can see time and time again as our liberty, freedom and net worth has been stolen the last few decades. Luckily man of us are seeing this pattern and are trying to take the power back from the establishment.
The establishment does have some advantages... but their playbook is getting old.
They get some media types to agitate..
Then they get some of their famous people... buffett or other media, or hollywood types... to say something.
Then the world bank or some UN group. ..
Then some newly minted billionaire like the facebook guy has to give a few hundred mill to the cause... per the arrangement he made when they minted his federal reserve spigot pay out.
Next we see congress and spokespeople on the t.v. shows... saying their crap... pretending its tough fight and they really have to dig.
Then Congress finds a way to sell out the base by whatever means necessary... on tough issues they like to used some self created phony canard like a budget deal or crisis or govt shutdown. Then they can end it with a phony poll saying its what the people wanted. (only to see later that other polls show the opposite when the question is properly framed)
kibuki...
The fed, the congress, the president... you see the same process getting spun up over and over.
The fact they own congress is one thing...the truly dangerous thing they own the media so very few people point this corruption out.
and wall street got their bailouts and so did the unions.
the cronies rotate lap dog politicians to run their scams to steal more money or more freedom ... see sawing back and forth between the democrats or the republicans.
you can see time and time again as our liberty, freedom and net worth has been stolen the last few decades. Luckily man of us are seeing this pattern and are trying to take the power back from the establishment.
The establishment does have some advantages... but their playbook is getting old.
They get some media types to agitate..
Then they get some of their famous people... buffett or other media, or hollywood types... to say something.
Then the world bank or some UN group. ..
Then some newly minted billionaire like the facebook guy has to give a few hundred mill to the cause... per the arrangement he made when they minted his federal reserve spigot pay out.
Next we see congress and spokespeople on the t.v. shows... saying their crap... pretending its tough fight and they really have to dig.
Then Congress finds a way to sell out the base by whatever means necessary... on tough issues they like to used some self created phony canard like a budget deal or crisis or govt shutdown. Then they can end it with a phony poll saying its what the people wanted. (only to see later that other polls show the opposite when the question is properly framed)
kibuki...
The fed, the congress, the president... you see the same process getting spun up over and over.
The fact they own congress is one thing...the truly dangerous thing they own the media so very few people point this corruption out.
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I have found that people don't know real costs to make ethanol.
"* An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel's analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.
* The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline.
* Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."
* Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce ethanol," Pimentel said. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
* Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol," Pimentel said."
https://www.organicconsumers.org/sc...equired-make-ethanol-actually-ethanol-cornell
"* An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel's analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.
* The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline.
* Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."
* Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce ethanol," Pimentel said. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
* Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol," Pimentel said."
https://www.organicconsumers.org/sc...equired-make-ethanol-actually-ethanol-cornell