It is truly not a partisan issue in my opinion. It is a fundamental degradation of the Bill of Rights that is being perpetrated by lawmakers in general and it has been happening for a very long time.
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Big Brother would be proud
- Thread starter Madison
- Start date
"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day. But a series of oppressions, pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly proves a deliberate systematic plan of reducing us to slavery".
-Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson Kicks Ass. I wish he was alive today. I think you hit the nail on the head Josh. This is a very determined effort that has not been ended regardless of which party we vote for. Thomas Jefferson also said that Political Parties would be very bad for Democracy, I think he was right. I vote issues and will even vote libertarian as a protest if the main candidates are particularly disgusting.
We went from Slick Willy to Dubya, and in spite of my conservative leanings, I don't think we did much to improve the situation. What has changed mostly is image. What did Clinton do that was really all that liberal? Not much, gays in the military comes to mind. What has Dubya done that is conservative? Basically attacked afghanistan and increased enforcement of laws already on the books. Has the nature of our society changed? I don't think so. They are two sides of the same coin. Lots of people are scared of the Homeland security act, but the truth is that we were already under surveilance, its just that now its totally admissable in court and the public knows about it.
-Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson Kicks Ass. I wish he was alive today. I think you hit the nail on the head Josh. This is a very determined effort that has not been ended regardless of which party we vote for. Thomas Jefferson also said that Political Parties would be very bad for Democracy, I think he was right. I vote issues and will even vote libertarian as a protest if the main candidates are particularly disgusting.
We went from Slick Willy to Dubya, and in spite of my conservative leanings, I don't think we did much to improve the situation. What has changed mostly is image. What did Clinton do that was really all that liberal? Not much, gays in the military comes to mind. What has Dubya done that is conservative? Basically attacked afghanistan and increased enforcement of laws already on the books. Has the nature of our society changed? I don't think so. They are two sides of the same coin. Lots of people are scared of the Homeland security act, but the truth is that we were already under surveilance, its just that now its totally admissable in court and the public knows about it.
Quote from MondoTrader:
[B...What did Clinton do that was really all that liberal? Not much, gays in the military comes to mind... [/B]
Excellent points (in your whole post).
That Clinton gay military thing was just a ploy to get votes. Everyone knew it; he made a big stink about it during the election, and presumably got some votes for it from gays and women, and then backed off once he was in office.
Quote from Josh_B:
...but this last one is probably the simplest and the best:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
Excellent quote, dude...from back in the days when we had statesman, and not just politicians...
...It is truly not a partisan issue in my opinion. It is a fundamental degradation of the Bill of Rights that is being perpetrated by lawmakers in general and it has been happening for a very long time....
Yes very true. It has been going on for sometime and it is getting worst. But it seems to be accelerating lately, like there is some kind of urgency.
It brings possibilities of a future were the vast majority is implanted, loyal subjects, with no objections, like cattle in the farm. Both minds and bodies fully controlled with a press of a button. Milked daily, kept alive just to feed the ruling elite. Oh and at times slaughtered, for the extra fear effect. But of course look at all the safety and security they are getting in the farm, fully protected from all the evil bad wolves outside the fence.
I just hope the fears are unfounded and that all works out for the better.
Josh
Yes very true. It has been going on for sometime and it is getting worst. But it seems to be accelerating lately, like there is some kind of urgency.
It brings possibilities of a future were the vast majority is implanted, loyal subjects, with no objections, like cattle in the farm. Both minds and bodies fully controlled with a press of a button. Milked daily, kept alive just to feed the ruling elite. Oh and at times slaughtered, for the extra fear effect. But of course look at all the safety and security they are getting in the farm, fully protected from all the evil bad wolves outside the fence.
I just hope the fears are unfounded and that all works out for the better.
Josh
Quote from MondoTrader:
Thomas Jefferson Kicks Ass. I wish he was alive today.
Agreed.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."
--Declaration of Independence
Prophetic?
"A... chief [executive] strictly limited, the right of war vested in the legislative body, a rigid economy of the public contributions and absolute interdiction of all useless expenses will go far towards keeping the government honest and unoppressive."
--Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823.
"A... chief [executive] strictly limited, the right of war vested in the legislative body, a rigid economy of the public contributions and absolute interdiction of all useless expenses will go far towards keeping the government honest and unoppressive."
--Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823.
The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it.
The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's good-by to the Bill of Rights.
-- H.L. Mencken
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
History keeps on repeating...
Josh
The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's good-by to the Bill of Rights.
-- H.L. Mencken
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
History keeps on repeating...
Josh
Pentagon drops plan to curb Net anonymity
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
November 22, 2002, 9:02 AM PT
A Defense Department agency recently considered--and rejected--a far-reaching plan that would sharply curtail online anonymity by tagging e-mail and Web browsing with unique markers for each Internet user.
The idea involved creating secure areas of the Internet that could be accessed only if a user had such a marker, called eDNA, according to a report in Friday's New York Times.
eDNA grew out of a private brainstorming session that included Tony Tether, president of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the newspaper said, and that would have required at least some Internet users to adopt biometric identifiers such as voice or fingerprints to authenticate themselves.
-cont-
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-966894.html
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
November 22, 2002, 9:02 AM PT
A Defense Department agency recently considered--and rejected--a far-reaching plan that would sharply curtail online anonymity by tagging e-mail and Web browsing with unique markers for each Internet user.
The idea involved creating secure areas of the Internet that could be accessed only if a user had such a marker, called eDNA, according to a report in Friday's New York Times.
eDNA grew out of a private brainstorming session that included Tony Tether, president of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the newspaper said, and that would have required at least some Internet users to adopt biometric identifiers such as voice or fingerprints to authenticate themselves.
-cont-
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-966894.html
Secret U.S. court OKs electronic spying
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
November 18, 2002
update WASHINGTON--A secretive federal court on Monday granted police broad authority to monitor Internet use, record keystrokes and employ other surveillance methods against terror and espionage suspects.
The 56-page ruling removes procedural barriers for federal agents conducting surveillance under the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). The law, enacted as part of post-Watergate reforms, permits sweeping electronic surveillance, telephone eavesdropping and surreptitious searches of residences and offices.
At a press conference Monday afternoon, Ashcroft applauded the ruling, characterizing it as a "victory for liberty, safety and the security of the American people."
...
The lower court, called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, had said there must be a well-defined wall separating domestic police agencies from spy agencies. It accused the FBI of submitting incorrect information under oath in more than 75 cases, including one signed by then-FBI Director Louis Freeh.
Justice Department lawyers argued that the USA Patriot Act, signed by President George W. Bush last fall, made any such wall obsolete and unnecessary. The Patriot Act also changed the requirements for FISA surveillance, saying that espionage or terrorist acts did not have to be the primary purpose of the investigation but only a "significant purpose."
The review court agreed with Ashcroft, even suggesting that greater use of FISA surveillance conceivably could have thwarted the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. It ruled that Ashcroft's proposed procedures, "if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant requirements, certainly come close." {:eek:! - madison}
Civil libertarians said they were alarmed by the ruling, the public version of which was censored for security reasons.
-cont-
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-966311.html
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
November 18, 2002
update WASHINGTON--A secretive federal court on Monday granted police broad authority to monitor Internet use, record keystrokes and employ other surveillance methods against terror and espionage suspects.
The 56-page ruling removes procedural barriers for federal agents conducting surveillance under the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). The law, enacted as part of post-Watergate reforms, permits sweeping electronic surveillance, telephone eavesdropping and surreptitious searches of residences and offices.
At a press conference Monday afternoon, Ashcroft applauded the ruling, characterizing it as a "victory for liberty, safety and the security of the American people."
...
The lower court, called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, had said there must be a well-defined wall separating domestic police agencies from spy agencies. It accused the FBI of submitting incorrect information under oath in more than 75 cases, including one signed by then-FBI Director Louis Freeh.
Justice Department lawyers argued that the USA Patriot Act, signed by President George W. Bush last fall, made any such wall obsolete and unnecessary. The Patriot Act also changed the requirements for FISA surveillance, saying that espionage or terrorist acts did not have to be the primary purpose of the investigation but only a "significant purpose."
The review court agreed with Ashcroft, even suggesting that greater use of FISA surveillance conceivably could have thwarted the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. It ruled that Ashcroft's proposed procedures, "if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant requirements, certainly come close." {:eek:! - madison}
Civil libertarians said they were alarmed by the ruling, the public version of which was censored for security reasons.
-cont-
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-966311.html