Beyond NLP

Firewalker,

I was ready to disagree with this paragraph from your first post on this thread:
I'm interested in NLP, but more than that... The understanding that all thought is false. All beliefs are contrivances. That the identity we present to ourselves is based on a lie. We are not our thoughts, we are not our beliefs, we are beyond that and consciousness is everywhere.

I'm still having a bit of trouble with the word *all* in the above paragraph. However, as I continued to read, I find this:

Quote from FireWalker:

Imagine your own psychology. You intuitively understand that at least some of your behaviors and emotional responses are rooted in environmental conditions. For an extreme example, let's say you were abused. One might imagine your behaviors and beliefs would be affected.

So your behaviors and beliefs are not "you". The self that you appear to be, is not your true "self". Who are you without the external beliefs and structures placed upon you? We aren't our beliefs, we aren't our thoughts, so what are we?

I believe we are something beyond this. The "self" and the ego are simply representational mechanisms created to function in this world.
More...

After reading this, I must say that you have opened my eyes to the concept that we in fact are not our beliefs and thoughts.(at least partially not - I'm still having a little difficulty with *all*)

So what are we? Big question - I don't know, but thanks for giving me something more to think about. :) I enjoy pondering ideas such as these.

Also, true enough WDG - there's something to be said for keeping it simple.
Still fun to ponder though. Just can't get a grip on *all* thought is false. If that's the case then the very thought of it being false is false....lol...:D
Surely something to be said for keeping it simple.
 
No more scientology ? Since I am contrarian :) here's again:

http://cisar.org/survey/vu.htm
"Winter also sees parallels between the FPOe and the Scientology movement, which also uses NLP methods to catch members. "Not only the liberals, but also the Scientologists have to constantly address new people." With one difference: the sect seeks members, the liberals seek voters. "

Do you need to "catch" and abuse yourself with NLP :p

Quote from FireWalker:

No more scientology please.


Andrew Cohen seems close to what I'm thinking of. I'm looking for Karen Horney now.

edit: Karen Horney understood this, but I don't think she ever figured out how to get there.

Any more? Someone must be interested in NLP along these lines.
More...
 
Quote from harrytrader:

No more scientology ? Since I am contrarian :) here's again:

http://cisar.org/survey/vu.htm
"Winter also sees parallels between the FPOe and the Scientology movement, which also uses NLP methods to catch members. "Not only the liberals, but also the Scientologists have to constantly address new people." With one difference: the sect seeks members, the liberals seek voters. "

Do you need to "catch" and abuse yourself with NLP :p
More...

Now I don't say that NLP can't work but it is just by application as the basic repetition techniques - no secret in that - for example to believe the ultimate secret of Scientology so called O.T. III (reproduction explicitely authorised by the author) - if I remember from elsewhere it is a 5000$ lesson cost for it alone and now this one is free :D :

http://www.spaink.net/cos/essays/atack_ot3.html

OT III - Scientologys "secret" course rewritten for beginners

According to Scientology theory, we are all multiple personalities made up of hundreds of compacted extraterrestrial entities. We have reincarnated for 75 million years since this happened to us all. Scientology has claimed that this is a business trade secret...

There has been great controversy, and massive litigation, concerning the Scientology cults once secret "Operating Thetan Section Three Course". To save the brain strain of reading this purportedly lethal material in the original Ronspeak, and to save any danger of litigation for violation of copyright, this version is humbly tendered as a gift to mankind...

Scientologists believe that they have reincarnated from before the beginning of time. They believe that many interplanetary civilizations have existed. Hubbard restyled the spirit the "thetan". Before the beginning of time, thetans existed, separate from one another (thetans were not created they have existed for all time and indeed precede the creation of time). With the creation of energy and matter, thetans have gradually become trapped. The principal method of entrapment is through "implanting", where <font color=red>the thetan is hypnotised and given positive suggestions which limit its powers</font> :D. This process, according to Hubbard has been going on in this universe for four quadrillion Years (4,000,000,000,000,000, rather than the mere 8-20,000,000 held by astrophysicists). However, this is just one universe in a series of several.

Scientology seeks to return the thetan's power by stripping away implants and using drills to heighten extrasensory perception and ability. <font color=red>The goal of these procedures is an "operating thetan" - a being who can act independently of his physical body, and can cause physical events to occur through sheer force of will. The "operating thetan" would be capable of dismissing illness and psychological disorder in others at will</font> :D. .

The Scientologist generally undertakes hundreds of hours of preparation prior to taking the first section of the Operating Thetan level courses - OT 1 (a version of which is available on Karin Spainks homepage). OT 2 consists of over a hundred pages of handwritten lists of opposites, such as "create - create no". These are supposedly the basic positive suggestions from implants administered 75 million years ago. These implants were part of the so-called OT 3 incident.

According to Hubbard, 75 million years ago, there was a confederation of 76 planets, including Earth. The "Galactic Confederation" (the title comes from the science fiction of E.E. 'Doc' Smith), was ruled by Xenu (also called "Xemu" by Hubbard). Overpopulation had become a serious problem, which Xenu resolved by murdering many of the inhabitants of the Confederation. Hubbard estimated that the 76 planets averaged 178 billion people each. The people were killed and the thetans (or spirits) gathered, frozen in a mixture of glycol and alcohol, and brought to Earth where they were placed near volcanoes which were exploded with hydrogen bombs. The thetans were gathered on "electronic ribbons", packaged together as clusters and given 36 days of implanting, to render them servile and incapable of decision. A cluster is a collection of body thetans containing a leader and an "alternate" leader. The cluster conceives itself to be an individual. According to OT 3, everyone on Earth is in fact a collection of such clusters (Hubbard says that each person doing OT 3 will find "hundreds" of body thetans - many victims of this course believe that they find millions).

On OT 3, the individual finds "body thetans" by locating any sensation of pressure or mass in his or her body. This is addressed "telepathically" as a cluster, and taken through the cluster-making incident of 75 million years ago. Once this is done, the individual body thetans should be available to be taken through either the same incident or the incident of entry into this universe. This is called "incident one", and supposedly occured four quadrillion years ago. This incident is described in the materials as: "Loud snap - waves of light - chariot comes out, turns left and right - cherub comes out - blows horn, comes close - shattering series of snaps - cherub fades back (retreats) - blackness dumped on thetan." Most scientologists are unaware of the true definition of "cherub".

The Scientologist spends days or years dealing with "body thetans" (I have known two people who "audited" this procedure almost every day for eleven years). Scientology materials of different dates assert that at the end of OT 3 the individual will be "stably exterior" (from his body - out of his head, it might be rephrased), free from "overwhelm" (i.e., nothing will ever overwhelm him emotionally again), and have total recall of his entire round of incarnations from four quadrillion years ago to the present. Secret materials seen only by those selling the course give the "end phenomenon" as a "big win" urging that the person be put onto the next course - where they pay by the hour - quickly.

Anyone who encounters this material without having undertaken Scientology courses up to OT 2 will supposedly die from pneumonia.

OT 3 is of course in substantial disagreement with conventional geology. Geologists hold that almost all of the volcanoes listed by Hubbard and both Hawaii and Los Palmas came into being far more recently than 75 million years ago. On a simple point of logic, it seems strange that none of these volcanoes was damaged by the explosion of the hydrogen bombs. Hubbard was taking barbiturates and drinking heavily when he wrote this material, according to letters he wrote at the time which are kept from scientologists by the management of Scientology.
 
Quote from harrytrader:

Now I don't say that NLP can't work but it is just by application as the basic repetition techniques - no secret in that - for example to believe the ultimate secret of Scientology so called O.T. III (reproduction explicitely authorised by the author) - if I remember from elsewhere it is a 5000$ lesson cost for it alone and now this one is free :D :

http://www.spaink.net/cos/essays/atack_ot3.html

OT III - Scientologys "secret" course rewritten for beginners

According to Scientology theory, we are all multiple personalities made up of hundreds of compacted extraterrestrial entities. We have reincarnated for 75 million years since this happened to us all. Scientology has claimed that this is a business trade secret...

There has been great controversy, and massive litigation, concerning the Scientology cults once secret "Operating Thetan Section Three Course". To save the brain strain of reading this purportedly lethal material in the original Ronspeak, and to save any danger of litigation for violation of copyright, this version is humbly tendered as a gift to mankind...

Scientologists believe that they have reincarnated from before the beginning of time. They believe that many interplanetary civilizations have existed. Hubbard restyled the spirit the "thetan". Before the beginning of time, thetans existed, separate from one another (thetans were not created they have existed for all time and indeed precede the creation of time). With the creation of energy and matter, thetans have gradually become trapped. The principal method of entrapment is through "implanting", where <font color=red>the thetan is hypnotised and given positive suggestions which limit its powers</font> :D. This process, according to Hubbard has been going on in this universe for four quadrillion Years (4,000,000,000,000,000, rather than the mere 8-20,000,000 held by astrophysicists). However, this is just one universe in a series of several.

Scientology seeks to return the thetan's power by stripping away implants and using drills to heighten extrasensory perception and ability. <font color=red>The goal of these procedures is an "operating thetan" - a being who can act independently of his physical body, and can cause physical events to occur through sheer force of will. The "operating thetan" would be capable of dismissing illness and psychological disorder in others at will</font> :D. .

The Scientologist generally undertakes hundreds of hours of preparation prior to taking the first section of the Operating Thetan level courses - OT 1 (a version of which is available on Karin Spainks homepage). OT 2 consists of over a hundred pages of handwritten lists of opposites, such as "create - create no". These are supposedly the basic positive suggestions from implants administered 75 million years ago. These implants were part of the so-called OT 3 incident.

According to Hubbard, 75 million years ago, there was a confederation of 76 planets, including Earth. The "Galactic Confederation" (the title comes from the science fiction of E.E. 'Doc' Smith), was ruled by Xenu (also called "Xemu" by Hubbard). Overpopulation had become a serious problem, which Xenu resolved by murdering many of the inhabitants of the Confederation. Hubbard estimated that the 76 planets averaged 178 billion people each. The people were killed and the thetans (or spirits) gathered, frozen in a mixture of glycol and alcohol, and brought to Earth where they were placed near volcanoes which were exploded with hydrogen bombs. The thetans were gathered on "electronic ribbons", packaged together as clusters and given 36 days of implanting, to render them servile and incapable of decision. A cluster is a collection of body thetans containing a leader and an "alternate" leader. The cluster conceives itself to be an individual. According to OT 3, everyone on Earth is in fact a collection of such clusters (Hubbard says that each person doing OT 3 will find "hundreds" of body thetans - many victims of this course believe that they find millions).

On OT 3, the individual finds "body thetans" by locating any sensation of pressure or mass in his or her body. This is addressed "telepathically" as a cluster, and taken through the cluster-making incident of 75 million years ago. Once this is done, the individual body thetans should be available to be taken through either the same incident or the incident of entry into this universe. This is called "incident one", and supposedly occured four quadrillion years ago. This incident is described in the materials as: "Loud snap - waves of light - chariot comes out, turns left and right - cherub comes out - blows horn, comes close - shattering series of snaps - cherub fades back (retreats) - blackness dumped on thetan." Most scientologists are unaware of the true definition of "cherub".

The Scientologist spends days or years dealing with "body thetans" (I have known two people who "audited" this procedure almost every day for eleven years). Scientology materials of different dates assert that at the end of OT 3 the individual will be "stably exterior" (from his body - out of his head, it might be rephrased), free from "overwhelm" (i.e., nothing will ever overwhelm him emotionally again), and have total recall of his entire round of incarnations from four quadrillion years ago to the present. Secret materials seen only by those selling the course give the "end phenomenon" as a "big win" urging that the person be put onto the next course - where they pay by the hour - quickly.

Anyone who encounters this material without having undertaken Scientology courses up to OT 2 will supposedly die from pneumonia.

OT 3 is of course in substantial disagreement with conventional geology. Geologists hold that almost all of the volcanoes listed by Hubbard and both Hawaii and Los Palmas came into being far more recently than 75 million years ago. On a simple point of logic, it seems strange that none of these volcanoes was damaged by the explosion of the hydrogen bombs. Hubbard was taking barbiturates and drinking heavily when he wrote this material, according to letters he wrote at the time which are kept from scientologists by the management of Scientology.
More...

How far have Tom Cruise and John Travolta gone?
 
Quote from maggandre:

How far have Tom Cruise and John Travolta gone?
More...
Good question. Both are pretty awesome achievers. Tom Cruise for example, has never let a stuntman do a job for him. He even insisted on doing the freeclimbing part in a movie himself, where he was like hanging off a a rock ceiling really high up, with no support and bare hands. One slip, or a cramp, and he would have been dead. The film crew and the producer freaked out completely, but he said he'd either do the scene himself or he'd leave the set right there and go. Wasn't it "Cliffhanger"?

As for John Travolta... Yeah, hasn't that dude been named by several aviation societies "the best pilot in the world?"
He has *every single licence acquirable* in non-military aviation. He's just 'a bit' of a flying fanatic.

Jeez, have you seen an aerial shoot of his fly-in "house" in Jumbolair, Florida? It's a fly-in community, you can't even get there by car. The hangars for his planes are directly connected his house, so he doesn't get wet on the few metres between his planes and his house when it's raining!

He has like several jets parked on-house, including his own Boeing 747, which he likes to fly "to work and back every day" when he has to be on set?

Far out!!!


As for the whole discussion on NLP; It is an excellent subject. I am a certified NLP practitioner myself , so I've been through a lot of tough stuff there. NLP is a brilliant way of getting to understand the way the human brain works, and particularly the power of beliefs and belief modification. Will some books on NLP help you with that? No! Most of the books out there on NLP won't help you. Even those of Richard Bandler and John Grinder won't get you there, because you need to be introduced to the concepts in a gentle way, or you'll just go overload.

What you need to do if you're serious about NLP, is find a good NLP coach who is registered with INLPTA International (not Robbins or any charlatans like that btw), and do the whole course, in several modules, so you get to learn the stuff intensely, digest it, and practice it live, and repeatedly, on several people, as well as yourself. The more people in the group, the better, because you get to learn about dealing with a multitude of complex problems and thinking processes, including cures, such as curing people's phobias, quitting smoking, or curing allergies for that matter. Particularly the cure thing is something that will get the points of NLP right across - Modification of subconscious belief patterns.


As for the "naysayers" here who say negative things about NLP - None of them have even a chance of a clue. Anybody who's seriously looked into this knows better. NLP is based on the most simple, yet most "ah-hah" logic you'll ever find, and that's what makes it so powerful. Becoming aware of it gives you infinite power over yourself and your environment.

NLP is being used world-wide particularly in fields of high-performance, such as sports (a lot there), sales, communications, all sorts of training, finance, and even military applications and many other things. Anywhere where you need to achieve something beyond your competition, NLP is very helpful.

In trading, it has become known through people like Charles Faulkner, a highly renowned NLP coach for traders, as featured in "The New Market Wizards" by Jack Schwager. Pick that book out of your shelf once more and read the interview with Faulkner, so you get an idea why NLP is so good for trading.

Myself, I have used NLP extensively in the field of sales, having been a sales person for several years and in a few different countries for that matter, last but not least in my own business. It works anywhere. Eventually, when I took up trading full-time, NLP has become an integral part of my performance maintenance and enhancement schedule.

I have been with a very highly regarded (and highly successful) NLP coach for several years now and we're still actively working together. I can only most highly recommend it.

Just don't go for charlatany or think you can get a quick-fix from a book. You need to find good people and put the work in.

Warmest Regards,
Scientist.
 
Or if you don't want to do the work, just wait until the pain of your current actions is greater than your perception of the pain of changing your current actions.

You're either working towards something or away from something.
 
It's obvious that some of the comments in this thread are from people who have no direct experience of what they say. And what the hell does NLP have to do with Scientology. Man, you guys gotta find something to do instead of making up stuff.

I won't try and argue with people stuck on their own perceptions, but if you're really interested, why not find out for yourself. It won't cost a dime. Go to your local library and find the book Frogs Into Princes. It's an easy, and fun, fast read. It describes what NLP can do in a nut shell. Ericksonian hypnosis relates to NLP quite usefully. Many, many major sports figures from golf to formula1 grand prix drivers use the excersises to hone their skills.

Used as intended, it is IMPOSSIBLE for NLP techniques not to work. Why? Because it's all based on modeling strategies.

It appears that their is a significant number of people on Elite that are closed minded, fearful, or just plain ignorant of the facts.

Now, about the philosophical questions, that's not something for NLP (which is merely a methodology to create outcomes). Think of it this way: what are you not? You are not your body, you are not your thoughts, you are not your job, your hobbies, your relationship; etc etc. One possible answer supported by quantum thoery is that you are everything. A universe that only appears as many separate components due to our perceptual filters.

For those among us, honestly pursuing knowledge and understanding, would it not make sense to dismiss subjective statements couched in certainty as simply fearful responses to the unknown?
 
...is essential to the developement of self. Any of those concepts, may it be scientology, NLP, self-hypnosis or whatever, should be observed as a model. Simply for the same reason that we would not stake every bit of our money on a trade because of a favorable model, would it be wise to redesign our very thought processes on only one such afforementioned concept? Such things need not be taken so literally. As in my studies I have dabbled in metaphysics, psychology, NLP, Buddhism, and in my younger days, even drugs. Not one single thing, will offer every single answer. Rather we pick up clues that open different doors to different places within ourselves. Free thinkers have been the ones to change the world, through inspiration, perspiration, and the willingness to break all the rules. And what does the world usually call them initially? crazy...
 
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