Bernie Madoff's Son Found Dead

[LEAPup]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

That's a sad shame. I'd much rather have Bernie personally experience a few of the more dramatic scenes from 'Shawshank Redemption'.

I agree! It is sad that the cons see him as more of a Mafia Don, and hold him up as a pseudo hero.

He's even trying to run the finances of the landscaping crew from the recent CNBC "American Greed" show.

I feel for the mom and pops who thought their nest eggs were "bullet proof" with the scumbag! It's hurt them badly, as well as other RIA's like myself. In fact I'll admit, it has impacted me in the wallet to a large degree. Larger than I thought it would... Every time I meet with a prospective Client I seem to get, "how do we know our money won't get stolen?" Sad! I USED to hear, "how do we know you will make us a good return?" Those days are gone... Now it's an even larger uphill battle gaining trust, and I wonder when the mom and pops I take great pride in helping will re-gain at least 'some' confidence...

Many are lumping WAY too much $$$$$ into gold and CD's, and that's sad. Understandable, but sad... I can't blame them after the crash, and the "made-off" fiasco. They usually don't know the 1st thing about investing, go with what they hear on t.v, and make emotional decisions that will severely (imo) impact them later in life. i.e., running out of money...

 

[Blotto]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

I found the last paragraph particularly interesting. Madoff was quoted as saying "The strategy is the strategy and the returns are the returns". <b>Anyone else notice how bullshitters/con men tend to favor speaking in tautologies of that sort?</b> Right after they show off their $10,000 rolexes and call you 'buddy' repeatedly. Just another red-flag bullshitter trait to look out for when dealing with people.

An interesting and astute observation. Victor Niederhoffer has discussed similar traits of conmen and hoodoos over at DS. Excessive familiarity (lots of hugs, remember to burn your shirt afterwards), flattery, and attempts to impress with the trappings of success.

You may enjoy this:
http://www.dailyspeculations.com/wordpress/?p=4909

 

[Rearden Metal]

Quote from Blotto:

An interesting and astute observation. Victor Niederhoffer has discussed similar traits of conmen and hoodoos over at DS. Excessive familiarity (lots of hugs, remember to burn your shirt afterwards), flattery, and attempts to impress with the trappings of success.

You may enjoy this:
http://www.dailyspeculations.com/wordpress/?p=4909

Nice!
Here's part of a much older (but highly relevant) Niederhoffer article:
_________________________________________
Final note
David Rosen, a very smart Chicago trader, spent many hours developing a profile of "the scumbag/user type" of impostor. Whenever he observes the following traits in someone, he says, "I know to run the other way." It seems to us that these characteristics could easily be applied to corporations, so we reprint them in full.

* He is very fashionable/trendy. This includes everything he owns: Car, clothing, even his address has to be in the trendy part of town. This also includes where he likes to spend his time. He can't just hang out at "Bob's Bar," he has to be seen at the most fashionable spots in the city. He'll usually live above his means. He takes great effort to maintain his image, because image is all he has.
* He is always looking for conquests. If he's married or has a girlfriend, he's cheating on her left and right. Whenever any attractive female passes by him, he is compelled to comment on her beauty to any men he happens to be with. This is often accompanied by a graphic description of what he'd like to do to her.
* He refuses to admit possibility of failure. When making his investment/business pitch, he enthusiastically gushes on about how it can't possibly fail. The worst that can possibly happen is that you'll only make a little money on the deal.
* He's your best friend right away. You've just met the guy, and he seems so happy to be around you and listens intently to everything you have to say. He acts like he's your new best buddy; in fact, he'll even literally call you "buddy" a lot to drive the point home.

"Beware of these four traits in anybody you're considering doing business with!" Rosen wrote. "Just one of these traits is enough to repulse me, but you'll often see the con man display three or even all four of these 'red flag' traits at once. Knowing how to accurately profile people is a skill worth fortunes."

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P32248.asp

_______________________________________________

 

[nutmeg]

I only gave this angle a cursory glance but Markopolis could have went to the AG regarding Madoff and may have sued for fraud based on the Martin Act (you can google this). I don't think he had this option at the time when the SEC refused to take action on his claims but now that madoff is busted the lawyers are now using the Martin Act to prosecute feeder funds. Seems to be a new interpretation, which I find annoying. I suppose if I could ask Markopolis one question this would be it, Did he try to pursue madoff via the Martin Act.

 

[olias]

Quote from Pekelo:

Here is somebody's else opinion, but I agree completely:

"Let's assume for the sake of argument the sons didn't know. Perhaps that would mean they shouldn't be criminally charged, and they haven't been.

But that doesn't make them innocent.

They are still holding on to at least tens-of-millions of dollars and assets, and maybe even more we don't know about, all of it a product of the ponzi scheme. And we're not just talking salaries for their supposedly legitimate jobs on the other side of the business. Each brother took out "loans" with no interest and no payment requirements of tens-of-millions to finance their lifestyles, homes, cars, private plane travel, etc. Which means, BTW, that if they were ignorant it was either willingly or they are complete idiots to never wonder where all that free money came from, which further emphasizes that they would not have been employable outside the company business.

So if they are innocent, they should give it all back. Keep just enough to live a modest middle class life unless they can earn it on their own. But instead they hire lawyers using some of the same money that was bilked from Madoff's investors to fight to hold onto money that was stolen from investors. It is the equivalent of a bank robber handing someone a bag full of money and that person claiming they have a right to keep it. So either way, regardless of what they knew about their father's scheme prior to two years ago, their subsequent actions have made them crooks.

And the same can be said of the brother and the brother's daughter and many of the former employees and all of the "feeder" fund partners, etc. I don't care what they knew beforehand. When they started fighting to keep the millions in proceeds they became just as bad as Madoff."

------------------------------

So Mark instead of committing suicide could have sold most of his properties and handle over 30-40 millions to Pickard as restitution, and still have left with a few millions to live a quiet but decent life, raising his kids.

Very good argument

 

[olias]

Quote from 1prometheus:

Anyone ever consider how they intended to bring this scam to a close?

It seems with some planning the financial crisis would have been the perfect excuse to "wipe out" all those phony profits.

The story could have been, "the huge tail event/credit crisis has devastated the even the venerable Madoff fund!".

People would have cried yet unforeseen market events do sink funds, and market conditions are no recourse to the investor who has lost money (unlike fraud). If this had been pulled off the crooks would have walked away scott free.

Somehow this got away from them and they could not bring it to a close in a way that fit the narrative.

Make you wonder how many other funds that "lose it" suddenly are just the orchestrated end to one big ponzi scheme. ...Or does this logic apply to the entire financial sector?

Damn, that is a very good question.

 

[Pekelo]

Quote from nutmeg:

I suppose if I could ask Markopolis one question this would be it, Did he try to pursue madoff via the Martin Act.

You missunderstanding the situation. It wasn't HM's duty to pursue anyone. He might didn't even know about the Martin act and last time I checked, he was certainly not the attorney general to be able to pursue anybody using the Martin act.

His boss asked him to look into Madoff's possible strategies and returns if it is possible to copy them. Once he did that he came to the conclusion that no, it is not possible, and that Madoff is most likely a fraud.

Ask yourself the question: It is 1999 and you have damaging info on one of the biggest players on Wall Street, what do you do with it? Mind you, if you happen to be wrong, he has the power to hurt you or at least make life unconfortable for you in the future.

So what do you do?? Actually lots of industry people had the same notion about Madoff but they decided that it wasn't their business and they did absolutely nothing.

------------------------------------------

Quote from 1prometheus:

Anyone ever consider how they intended to bring this scam to a close?

My guess is that they didn't have a plan B. Unless the plan is to have a couple of fake IDs around and cash in a few offshore banks, there is not much what a Ponzi runner can do, once people start to ask for their money....

Using a crash to close the fund wouldn't work, by the way...

 

[LEAPup]

I agree with that 100%!! In fact, you just described 3/4 of the brokers I used to work with when I was at Mother Merrill.

I guess since I wear jeans, a dress shirt, sport coat, and drive a "run of the mill" suv, I can at least feel a little better about the way I'm perceived by perspective Clients vs. the other brokers and RIA's in my building. (I have an office in what I would consider broker central.) Many Porsches, Mercedes, $2,000 suits, etc., all around. I get funny looks from some of the idiot brokers in the elevator when they look down and see I'm wearing gator skin boots and a gator belt with the jeans, etc., The funny part is the gator skin came from a gator that tried to eat my Cousin's dog in the back yard of his Florida home. Guess I'm not all "fashionable." lol! The funnier part is the brokers in the elevator mostly work for wirehouses, or regional firms and are on a 42-45% payout AND NOT CARING IF THEIR CLIENTS MAKE MONEY vs. me being performance only and on a 100% payout.

I hate to say I dislike "my own kind," but I dislike the "average" broker to the point where I eat lunch in my office, and stay to myself until it's time to go home to family. After going to lunches back in the day when I was with the evil empire Mother Merrill, and hearing so much b.s, plus "I drive this, I am buying a vacation home here," etc., I coud puke. Gotta say, I'm glad to see the post you made! It's a very accurate portrayal of what to stay FAR away from imo. The sad part is the "average" investor thinks the things you posted are the norm for brokers, and expect it. After pondering on where I came from to where I am now, I think I'll go take a shower now. I don't know how some of the guys I used to work with can sleep at night with the crap they pull on a daily basis just because compliance signed off on it...

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Nice!
Here's part of a much older (but highly relevant) Niederhoffer article:
_________________________________________
Final note
David Rosen, a very smart Chicago trader, spent many hours developing a profile of "the scumbag/user type" of impostor. Whenever he observes the following traits in someone, he says, "I know to run the other way." It seems to us that these characteristics could easily be applied to corporations, so we reprint them in full.

* He is very fashionable/trendy. This includes everything he owns: Car, clothing, even his address has to be in the trendy part of town. This also includes where he likes to spend his time. He can't just hang out at "Bob's Bar," he has to be seen at the most fashionable spots in the city. He'll usually live above his means. He takes great effort to maintain his image, because image is all he has.
* He is always looking for conquests. If he's married or has a girlfriend, he's cheating on her left and right. Whenever any attractive female passes by him, he is compelled to comment on her beauty to any men he happens to be with. This is often accompanied by a graphic description of what he'd like to do to her.
* He refuses to admit possibility of failure. When making his investment/business pitch, he enthusiastically gushes on about how it can't possibly fail. The worst that can possibly happen is that you'll only make a little money on the deal.
* He's your best friend right away. You've just met the guy, and he seems so happy to be around you and listens intently to everything you have to say. He acts like he's your new best buddy; in fact, he'll even literally call you "buddy" a lot to drive the point home.

"Beware of these four traits in anybody you're considering doing business with!" Rosen wrote. "Just one of these traits is enough to repulse me, but you'll often see the con man display three or even all four of these 'red flag' traits at once. Knowing how to accurately profile people is a skill worth fortunes."

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P32248.asp

_______________________________________________

 

[Pekelo]

Recent news:


"Annette Bongiorno, the Ponzi king's loyal assistant of 40 years, chose jail over helping the feds get hold of the $14 million they accuse her of stealing as part of Madoff's shady operation."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...jailed-over-ponzi-millions/?cid=hp:mainpromo5

Judge said she was a flight risk and wouldn't lower the bail from 5 to 3 million.

"The government has already seized $5.1 million in bank accounts and property, including a Bentley and two Mercedes-Benz sedans, from the Bongiornos.
Still, because prosecutors say the government wants to seize any other assets it can locate, the couple has refused to reveal the value of any of Rudy's solo accounts or the location of other accounts, including $2.4 million they admit they have stashed in joint accounts."

 

[Pekelo]

I am currently reading HM's book No one would listen. It is quite repetitive and should be just a long New Yorker article, but it has some interesting tidbits:

1. On the very same week when the MARHedge article was published in 2001, there was another article printed in Barron's by Erin Arvedlund, rising the same questions and later completely ignored by everyone. Now SEC employees had no budget for subscribing to industry magazines (and MARHedge costs was $1000 annually) but Barron was a rather widely read publication.

Anyhow, the point here is that more than 1 journalist noticed the discrepancies and published about it as early as 2001. Also Madoff came out of the interview as a very smooth operator and even Orcant started to doubt the investigators, because Madoff had a seemingly plausible answer for every question and he didn't seem to be worried.

2. HM came to the conclusion that several of the investing funds knew something was up, but they thought it was frontrunning (illegal). They didn't worry because they were the profiting party of the action and if Madoff got discovered they wouldn't lose money.

Lots of others who looked into Madoff as a possible HF but didn't like what they saw simply just didn't place money with him.

3. Whistle blowing can be dangerous to one's health. A guy who worked for Putnam Investments and refused to take the Boilermaker Union's money because it was against regulations, got almost killed by a brick knocked several times to his head....