Not gonna happen unless there's this huge calamitous painful reset, like huuuge.
Bank Runs! What's Going On? - Patrick Boyle
- Thread starter The_Krakenite
- Start date
You have not thought this out much, have you?
From Douglas Adams in the late 1970s...
--------------------------
“If," ["the management consultant"] said tersely, “we could for a moment move on to the subject of fiscal policy. . .”
“Fiscal policy!" whooped Ford Prefect. “Fiscal policy!"
The management consultant gave him a look that only a lungfish could have copied.
“Fiscal policy. . .” he repeated, “that is what I said.”
“How can you have money,” demanded Ford, “if none of you actually produces anything? It doesn't grow on trees you know.”
“If you would allow me to continue.. .”
Ford nodded dejectedly.
“Thank you. Since we decided a few weeks ago to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich.”
Ford stared in disbelief at the crowd who were murmuring appreciatively at this and greedily fingering the wads of leaves with which their track suits were stuffed.
“But we have also,” continued the management consultant, “run into a small inflation problem on account of the high level of leaf availability, which means that, I gather, the current going rate has something like three deciduous forests buying one ship’s peanut."
Murmurs of alarm came from the crowd. The management consultant waved them down.
“So in order to obviate this problem,” he continued, “and effectively revalue the leaf, we are about to embark on a massive defoliation campaign, and. . .er, burn down all the forests. I think you'll all agree that's a sensible move under the circumstances."
The crowd seemed a little uncertain about this for a second or two until someone pointed out how much this would increase the value of the leaves in their pockets whereupon they let out whoops of delight and gave the management consultant a standing ovation. The accountants among them looked forward to a profitable autumn aloft and it got an appreciative round from the crowd.”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
-----------------
So this becomes the same problem with bartering services for goods. It won't work. Because a hell of a lot of people can drive a car, but much fewer have the know-how on how to refine oil to make the gasoline that makes cars go.
So if I door dash to a lady for free (not even minding the cost of goods), what does the lady do for me to compensate me for delivering the goods?
The bartering system must start at the very top-levels of society. What is a car worth. What is a house worth. What are the workers who make those things worth? Are they worth 5 apples per car? 10? And where does the car/house maker get the apples? From the farmer of apples? What does the farmer of apples get for providing the apples to the car maker to pay the workers?
Does the farmer get a free house? How many houses does he need?
Don't you see the problem inherent in the system you propose? There is a reason a currency was created through gold and spices and textiles thousands of years ago, because they are UNIVERSAL. Everyone wanted/needed them. That just will not work today.
Think of the leaves.
LOL This is EXACTLY what we have been taught to believe. The specialization of goods that's not going to be fulfilled by the bartering system. What if I need something so special that no one can fulfill it? Relax. I am just asking for simple bartering of goods/services for basic needs like groceries LOL not to replace the whole economy. When there is a need that arises, you will think of it what you would need from that lady you just delivered something to for free. LOL Of course when there is money that's there readily available, you won't be able to think of any. It would be way too convenient to just take out the credit card and swipe it and what you need arrives instantly. And @themickey is right, there needs to be a reset, a HUUUUGE one to make people realize the merit of the barter economy. But like I said, I am not trying to replace the whole economy, I am just thinking this would help relieve people's needs for basic stuff. And even for the HUUUUGE reset, that is coming. When the inflation gets so bad that paper money is completely useless now, people will naturally resort to a barter economy to do things for each other. You will see. This is what people eventually resorted to doing during hyperinflation time in the 1920-30s. I am saying we can start pre-emptively before we ever reach some kind of hyperinflation and maybe if we end up exchanging goods/services directly without involving paper money, we can ease inflation naturally and prevent hyperinflation.
This is where you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. The barter system cannot start at the top, then it becomes a planned economy. China and Russia tried that and for any countries that have tried that, the result is always disastrous. The top people cannot decide what to exchange for what because you won't know what I need. The bartering system is a very personal thing; it is derived from a personal need for something that I have to get from someone else and then offering something that I have to that person in return. Biden or Yellen or Powell is not going to know what I need or how badly I need it. How are they going to determine what can be exchanged for what or for how much? By looking at group statistics? China and Russia tried that, to determine what each individual wants according to what they believe the whole population wants as a collective and the result is people get out of there in search of personal freedom and choice. No, the bartering system has to start at the bottom, at a very personal level first (mowing your lawn for painting my house or driving you to your medical appointment for some simple groceries and etc.), and then when more people get involved then eventually the bartering system would get more elaborate and complicated but more refined for more specialized items and then eventually reaching a level where how much a car is to be exchanged for can be determined IF we ever get that far.
Yes but if the medium of exchange breaks down and doesn't reflect the reality or the real value of the goods anymore, then the bartering system is the way to go.
I know what you are trying to get at here, but the system cannot work. You talk of mowing the lawn in exchange for painting the house. Driving someone to the medical appointment in exchange for groceries. You are WAY out of your league on this thought process. I have been thinking about it for YEARS, but it always comes back to the same basic principle...What does the producer of the shit you want get in return for the shit you want?
The guy who sells you a car needs to pay the guy who made the car, who needs to pay the guy that provided the steel to make the car, who needs to pay the guy who smelted the ore to make the steel, who needs to pay the guy who mined the ore, who needs to pay the guy who leased the mine to the miners in the first place.
It is a neverending cycle of who did more work than the other to value the bartering. That is why there is a currency system!
That's fine. For the big stuff, we can still use paper money that's no problem. I am talking about the small stuff, basic stuff, groceries, toilet paper, and etc. Those are the things that are now experiencing the largest inflation because that's the stuff that everybody needs. For the big stuff like cars, not everybody needs them or needs them all the time. You have the money, you buy them, you don't have the money, you don't buy them. But the basic stuff, when you don't have enough money to buy them but when you absolutely need them, you would naturally think of offering something that you have or can do in exchange for them. Trust me when the going gets tough enough, some kind of bartering system for basic stuff will naturally emerge. Church groups already have some kind of bartering systems for their members; somebody who need baby formula will offer to babysit in exchange and etc.
Your idea never took off before because we never needed it before. We never had a pandemic; the economy was going up nicely; we never had double-digit inflation. The sun was shining; everything was going great. So nobody would ever think of needing to do something or offering something in exchange for something else. Everything can be bought at the store for a great price. Why need to barter? Now the time has changed. Things are different now. And different time calls for different measures. You will see eventually some form of a bartering system at the basic level, in local small communities will arise when people try to obtain their basic stuff when they can't afford to anymore.
Well bartering is by mutual agreement. If you don't like what I am offering, don't give me the stuff. Simple. I offer to drive you around in exchange for you to give me some basic milk and chicken and bread. You think I am asking too much? Fine, I won't drive you around and you go take the freaking bus while waiting in the rain. It's no problem. I will just go ask the next person and the next person until somebody takes up my offer. The process is really tedious yes but if enough people are in the same dire situation then everybody will be more willing to negotiate and compromise then the bartering process will get easier.
Last edited:
Lots of people have cash deposits of over 250k. Most companies have Daily Cash items in excess of 250k. Should they be trading treasuries every 1 hour to manage it?
That's the damn problem in Russia. Those damn windows all say "Made in China". Just like the tires on their military hardware.
yes, because interest rates are going higher! making bonds more attractive.