Bad Economics: College degree’s & Income inequality

NCC1701 said:
There's a Physician Shortage In the U.S. Here's Why | Time
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No bro. The shortage only happened as a result of Covid. But there was actually a surplus of doctors before Covid. And there were a lot of inept bad doctors.

My point is that if there's no other college education available other than STEM majors (as that stupid gal wants), that is what you will see happening. In the end, you will only produce a bunch of mediocre morons who will muddy up the entire STEM industry while driving up the cost of education for everyone else.
 
schizo said:
No bro. The shortage only happened as a result of Covid. But there was actually a surplus of doctors before Covid. And there were a lot of inept bad doctors.

My point is that if there's no other college education available other than STEM majors (as that stupid gal wants), that is what you will see happening. In the end, you will only produce a bunch of mediocre morons who will muddy up the entire STEM industry while driving up the cost of education for everyone else.
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I half agree, covid didnt help, my son is an ER doc, there is a shortage in some critical areas including his, burnout is high

We already needed more doctors. Then COVID-19 hit | AAMC

Medicine is STEM IMO, but anyway I am not in favor of banning other majors, just don't give them huge loans then have to listen to them bitch when they gotta pay it back. College was never intended to be for everyone, but then the Universities and a lot of people sold the degree as the golden ticket to a higher salary, then they created more universities and invented more degrees because professors need jobs too. Now they want to get rid of testing so everyone gets a degree. It has become the self-licking ice cream cone, too much, IMO and university admins are almost criminal in this.
 
NCC1701 said:
Shifting the goalposts from waiters and cab drivers to plumbers and electricians is dishonest the level of skill and knowledge required are vastly different, so are you a dishonest debater? I am very satisfied with uber drivers over cab drivers, let's leave it at that, they don't need some stupid ass training. All a waiter has to do is take my order, deliver my food and whatnot, be attentive and polite, that's it. You want to pay some moron a lot of money to do more than that? LOL, you do that, I don't need an $120 lunch with a decent wine presentation.

Master plumbers do in fact make more than liberal arts majors in general, but you want to pretend the central question is not valid, you want to go on pretending that gender studies degrees for instance are just as valuable as electrical engineering degrees. It is a really stupid idea to say all college degrees are equal, but hey I can't fix stupid.
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You like to use the word "stupid" a lot. Is that low self esteem or excessive sense of self? Both are joined at the hip.
You misunderstood the logic of the argument. No one suggests that all college degrees are equal but that all college degrees are valuable because educational. Catch the difference?
The world education systems produce an enormous amount of research on just about anything. From archeology, sociology, quantum physics, education, sports... Engineers are but one of the many degrees that contribute to our better understanding of the world and it's populations, and some of those degrees are pretty complex and require a lot of knowledge to reach the next level of analysis.
As I've said before, if you're a decision maker, in business or government (as a trader), you need as much information as possible to make an informed decision. If your room is full of engineers or MBAs or lawyers, you limit your field to a narrow band of the smartest person in the room who essentially could make the decision for you. The smarter leaders surrounds themselves with people whose expertise is as varied as possible, each contributing to the overall assessment necessary to make the informed decision.

That's where education comes in.
 
VicBee said:
You like to use the word "stupid" a lot. Is that low self esteem or excessive sense of self? Both are joined at the hip.
You misunderstood the logic of the argument. No one suggests that all college degrees are equal but that all college degrees are valuable because educational. Catch the difference?
The world education systems produce an enormous amount of research on just about anything. From archeology, sociology, quantum physics, education, sports... Engineers are but one of the many degrees that contribute to our better understanding of the world and it's populations, and some of those degrees are pretty complex and require a lot of knowledge to reach the next level of analysis.
As I've said before, if you're a decision maker, in business or government (as a trader), you need as much information as possible to make an informed decision. If your room is full of engineers or MBAs or lawyers, you limit your field to a narrow band of the smartest person in the room who essentially could make the decision for you. The smarter leaders surrounds themselves with people whose expertise is as varied as possible, each contributing to the overall assessment necessary to make the informed decision.

That's where education comes in.
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I lose patience, that is where the stupid comes in, sorry

All college valuable? first of all in the US many of these so called degrees are no longer education but indoctrination. They have evolved into what many are calling cults due to their refusal to allow debate from other points of view and strict adherence to a post modern doctrine that literally punishes you if you don't toe the line. That is dangerous and anti-intellectual, not useful and they do not contribute anything to societies material well being and understanding. What about opportunity cost? They might have been doing something better.

If you are one of the few lucky ones, then you also learn critical thinking and how to work independently. Lost art at universities it seems.

Most research ends up in journals, never read again, useful? We regarded most research as brain training and not more. I have been in rooms where engineering decisions are made. Force of personality I am sorry to say often wins. Here is a common fallacy that you seem to be entertaining- that the leader really can ascertain the 'smartest' opinion and that the smartest opinion always has the correct and best advice. Way, way, messier than that, and on top of that cost and organizational issues are often complicated issues in themselves. Generally what works best is that the leader is one of the smartest and has the best vision, others are infrastructure. If not, then at least try and spot your best talent, then empower them and leave the room. Keep the vison and make them report to you.
 
NCC1701 said:
I lose patience, that is where the stupid comes in, sorry

All college valuable? first of all in the US many of these so called degrees are no longer education but indoctrination. They have evolved into what many are calling cults due to their refusal to allow debate from other points of view and strict adherence to a post modern doctrine that literally punishes you if you don't toe the line. That is dangerous and anti-intellectual, not useful and they do not contribute anything to societies material well being and understanding. What about opportunity cost? They might have been doing something better.

If you are one of the few lucky ones, then you also learn critical thinking and how to work independently. Lost art at universities it seems.

Most research ends up in journals, never read again, useful? We regarded most research as brain training and not more. I have been in rooms where engineering decisions are made. Force of personality I am sorry to say often wins. Here is a common fallacy that you seem to be entertaining- that the leader really can ascertain the 'smartest' opinion and that the smartest opinion always has the correct and best advice. Way, way, messier than that, and on top of that cost and organizational issues are often complicated issues in themselves. Generally what works best is that the leader is one of the smartest and has the best vision, others are infrastructure. If not, then at least try and spot your best talent, then empower them and leave the room. Keep the vison and make them report to you.
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That's what I meant by smartest person in the room, the one with the ability to convince the decision maker that their input is the best, regardless of fact. Ironically, you're validating my point that multi faceted education is valuable, such as debating skills, psychology, etc.. which can enhance an engineer's ability to express themselves clearly in various situations.

At to allowing debate from multiple points of view, I'm afraid that radical thinking is no longer limited to the far left. Under Trump, America has embraced radical right wing ideologies that make most centrist and conservative Republicans cringe or give up politics altogether.
I just don't believe in absolute free speech, particularly if it is to threaten or encourage violence against others. For example, I'm not religious but I respect those who are, provided they don't attempt to impose their morals or politics on me or others.
Quite the opposite, I believe it's most important to foster harmony among our very diverse groups and impose strict limits to inflammatory discourse.
 
NCC1701 said:
I half agree, covid didnt help, my son is an ER doc, there is a shortage in some critical areas including his, burnout is high
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Well, ER is a complete different story. They're ALWAYS short staffed and most likely always will be, pandemic or no pandemic. I'm more critical towards the regular 9-to-5 doctors driving Porsche in their Armani suit. You know, the ones with terrible bedside manner.

NCC1701 said:
Medicine is STEM IMO, but anyway I am not in favor of banning other majors, just don't give them huge loans then have to listen to them bitch when they gotta pay it back.
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There's no disagreement here. But when the government bails out Wall Street under the pretext of "too big to fail", isn't this the natural progression? Why should the big guys get a free lunch while small peanuts get only crumbs, if even that?

What really pisses me off is that those Covid stimulus checks, which were meant to be saved for a rainy day, were squandered in the stock market. Most of those idiots probably lost it all in 2022. So why does the government keep squandering our tax money on these idiots, I've no idea.

NCC1701 said:
College was never intended to be for everyone, but then the Universities and a lot of people sold the degree as the golden ticket to a higher salary, then they created more universities and invented more degrees because professors need jobs too. Now they want to get rid of testing so everyone gets a degree. It has become the self-licking ice cream cone, too much, IMO and university admins are almost criminal in this.
More...
Pretty laughable to think the "higher education" is anything but education. No doubt, they're a criminal institution through and through. Shit, all they care about is money. Last time I heard, Harvard's endowment, which stood at $53.2 billion in 2022, is larger than most third-world countries. That's friggin' greed to the core.

There's no end to all this. But eliminating degrees is certainly not a solution.
 
VicBee said:
That's what I meant by smartest person in the room, the one with the ability to convince the decision maker that their input is the best, regardless of fact. Ironically, you're validating my point that multi faceted education is valuable, such as debating skills, psychology, etc.. which can enhance an engineer's ability to express themselves clearly in various situations.

At to allowing debate from multiple points of view, I'm afraid that radical thinking is no longer limited to the far left. Under Trump, America has embraced radical right wing ideologies that make most centrist and conservative Republicans cringe or give up politics altogether.
I just don't believe in absolute free speech, particularly if it is to threaten or encourage violence against others. For example, I'm not religious but I respect those who are, provided they don't attempt to impose their morals or politics on me or others.
Quite the opposite, I believe it's most important to foster harmony among our very diverse groups and impose strict limits to inflammatory discourse.
More...

No I disagree. If you think the smartest-best person in the room is the one who sells and convinces people better, then you do not know how the technical world works. Nature nor the economy does not care about your debate skills, the best decisions often come after long deliberation alone after a lot of analysis that can only be done by someone within the discipline, in fact it gets so specialized that people within EE for example get good at a few things in their lane. For really good engineers with a decent proposal or idea, the argument will sell itself as it takes other bright engineers to actually understand it and not english majors.

There are times when decision makers have no time, they have to make a lot of heavy spur of the moment decisions. If you are selling a proposal in that environment then yes your sales skills then matter a lot, however what is observed is that sales skills are not a good indicator of future project success. Research and development is 95% failure, and there is no way decision makers can do anything but take the technical sales at face value, which opens the door to a lot of snake oil in the science and engineering world. Yes that's right, scientists and engineers can be less than honest salesmen and it takes another one of them to weed shit out.
 
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I don't disagree with what you're saying. Companies employ so called solutions architects primarily to act as the conduit between the tech people and the other service branches to package a viable client solution.

Years ago, I worked on a furniture design project that I hoped to become a great adventure which didn't pan out other than build a prototype made from wood, leather and stainless steel. I was quite amazed by the amount of pushback I received from tech people who couldn't get past their creative limitations. It just couldn't be done the way I wanted it... until it was done.
 
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