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Quote from phenomena:

There are lots of museums dedicated to Jewish achievments???

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&c...CBYQBSgA&q=museum+jewish+achievements&spell=1

I couldn't find a single one. I guess they are secret museums? Can you link me to one of these Jewish achievement museums?
Are you kidding me!? Third hit on your link, gives the following list:

Europe
Jewish Historical Museum, Amsterdam or Jewish Historical Museum, Amsterdam (new site)
Anne Frank House
The Jewish Museum of Athens
Jewish Museum of Austria
Jewish Museum Hohenems Austria
The Jewish Museum of Belgium
Jewish Museum of Greece
Jewish Museum Frankfurt
The Jewish Museum, London
Jewish Museum in Prague - see Virtual Exhibit -
Rhodes Jewish Museum
Jewish Museum of Switzerland
Das Jdische Museum Westfalen
Gedenkstatten for NS-Opfer in Deutschland (Memorial Museums for Victims of National Socialism in Germay)
Jewish Museum of Franconia - Fuerth and Schnaittach, Germany
The Mechelen Museum of Deportation and Resistance
The Sephardic Museum Toledo, Spain
The Jewish Museum Venice, Italy
Venice Jewish Community and Museum
Izieu Children's Home (La Maison des enfants d'izieu) Memorial Museum
The Museum of Jewish Culture in Slovakia
The Manchester Jewish Museum in England
Jewish Historical Museum Belgrade, Serbia
Judiska Museet Stockholm, Sweden
Mediterranean Institute Memory and Archives of Judaism Marseilles, France
Museum of Judaic Art and History Paris, France
http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/links/jewish_museums.htm

That's just in Europe. In the US alone, there's another 54 or so museums, and then there's Canada, Australia, etc.

Quote from phenomena:

Bullshit. The palestinians fled the "lands" (few square miles) in a war in which they initiated against Israel. They attacked, started getting their asses kicked, [...]
That's factually incorrect. Although some people certainly fled, the civilians were ordered to stay put by the Arab armies. The Jewish defence forces, mostly terrorist organizations at the time, had to rape, massacre and burn villages in order to force as many civilians as possible to flee. This is heavily documented by Israeli historians.

Quote from a_person:

Nonsense. two peoples populated the land, one of them got Jordan and half of the remaining land, the other people got a very small piece of land (0.2% of the region, half of which was an uninhabitable desert) too and called it Israel. The second group was happy, the first wanted it all. All arab landowners who stayed and did not join Israel's enemies got to keep their land and property and they together with their descendants are now citizens of the only western, prosperous democracy in the region. Of course for those who joined the enemy forces against their own country the bets were off.
You forgot to mention that one of those two peoples mostly consisted of immigrants who came from Europa. Yes, there was also a small minority of local Jews, a lot of which even resisted the European immigrants alongside Christians and Muslims.

Let alone the fact that the land was stolen from the Jews 2000 years ago and to the best of my knowledge there is no official statute of limitations. If arabs who were not born in Israel and never set foot there are considered refugees, so are all the jews on the planet.
That's inaccurate at best. The land was not stolen by the people we call Palestinians today. Modern day Palestinians has the same ancestors in the same land as the Jews, from before any Jewish identity even came to existence (Cultural, linguistic and genetic evidence exists). The fact that the Romans tossed out some of the people does not in any way legitimate the removal of the other indigenous people. You'd HAVE to be religious to believe that the creation of a Jewish state on that piece of land was legitimate. Either religious or insane. To maintain a state with any predominantly religious or ethnic identity, whether Israeli/Palestinian or Jewish/Muslim is as wrong today. The land needs a non-racial, non-religious government that can serve the peoples regardless of who they are.
 
Quote from phenomena:

of course, the invention of the "Palestinian people" is the greatest islamic invention of modern times...
How's that any different from the invention of the "Jewish people"? Or the "Swedish people" or the "German people"? Nationalism involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation. The Palestinian identity was "invented" in the late 19th century/early 20th century, I know you claim it was in 1967, but that's not the point, because it doesn't matter when it was invented. It exists now, it's as legitimate as any nationality and there's nothing you can do about it (unless you want to exterminate all who identify with the identity). Deal with it.
 
Yeah exactlty, I don't see the "Jewish achievement museum" on your list. Thanks for confirming that there is no museum for showcasing Jewish achievments...

Bullshit. There were those who fought, until they got their asses kicked. The others fled when their commrades got their asses kicked. So, when they started a war killing Israelis, lost ,then ran, of course they are not getting their land back... LOL!!! It's not like israelis just rolled up on them and started knocking off villages to take the land. These people attacked Israel, and were rightfully defeated. The remaining cowards ran away after they had attacked.

Quit with the strawmen, no one said it was stolen by the same people we call "Palestinians" today. Who cares if it consisted of people who had moved from Europe. WTF does that matter.. No the romans tossing jews out doesnt legitimize the removal of another people. The pals attacking and trying to eliminate them, then getting their sorry asses kicked and running away does however.

Well I guess you are saying the UK, France, and the UN are very religious since they are the ones who created a Jewish state on that piece of land...


Quote from destroyer:

Are you kidding me!? Third hit on your link, gives the following list:

Europe
Jewish Historical Museum, Amsterdam or Jewish Historical Museum, Amsterdam (new site)
Anne Frank House
The Jewish Museum of Athens
Jewish Museum of Austria
Jewish Museum Hohenems Austria
The Jewish Museum of Belgium
Jewish Museum of Greece
Jewish Museum Frankfurt
The Jewish Museum, London
Jewish Museum in Prague - see Virtual Exhibit -
Rhodes Jewish Museum
Jewish Museum of Switzerland
Das Jdische Museum Westfalen
Gedenkstatten for NS-Opfer in Deutschland (Memorial Museums for Victims of National Socialism in Germay)
Jewish Museum of Franconia - Fuerth and Schnaittach, Germany
The Mechelen Museum of Deportation and Resistance
The Sephardic Museum Toledo, Spain
The Jewish Museum Venice, Italy
Venice Jewish Community and Museum
Izieu Children's Home (La Maison des enfants d'izieu) Memorial Museum
The Museum of Jewish Culture in Slovakia
The Manchester Jewish Museum in England
Jewish Historical Museum Belgrade, Serbia
Judiska Museet Stockholm, Sweden
Mediterranean Institute Memory and Archives of Judaism Marseilles, France
Museum of Judaic Art and History Paris, France

That's just in Europe. In the US alone, there's another 54 or so museums, and then there's Canada, Australia, etc.

That's factually incorrect. Although some people certainly fled, the civilians were ordered to stay put by the Arab armies. The Jewish defence forces, mostly terrorist organizations at the time, had to rape, massacre and burn villages in order to force as many civilians as possible to flee. This is heavily documented by Israeli historians.

You forgot to mention that one of those to peoples mostly consisted of immigrants who came from Europa. Yes there were some local Jews, a lot of them even resisted the European immigrants alongside Christians and Muslims.

That's inaccurate at best. The land was not stolen by the people we call Palestinians today. Modern day Palestinians has the same ancestors in the same land as the Jews, from before any Jewish identity even came to existence (Cultural, linguistic and genetic evidence exists). The fact that the Romans tossed out some of the people does not in any way legitimate the removal of the other indigenous people. You'd HAVE to be religious to believe that the creation of a Jewish state on that piece of land was legitimate. Either religious or insane. To maintain a state with any predominantly religious or ethnic identity, whether Israeli/Palestinian or Jewish/Muslim is as wrong today. The land needs a non-racial, non-religious government that can serve the peoples regardless of who they are.
 
There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.

Quote from destroyer:

How's that any different from the invention of the "Jewish people"? Or the "Swedish people" or the "German people"? Nationalism involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation. The Palestinian identity was "invented" in the late 19th century/early 20th century, I know you claim it was in 1967, but that's not the point, because it doesn't matter when it was invented. It exists now, it's as legitimate as any nationality and there's nothing you can do about it (unless you want to exterminate all who identify with the identity). Deal with it.
 
Quote from phenomena:

Yeah exactlty, I don't see the "Jewish achievement museum" on your list. Thanks for confirming that there is no museum for showcasing Jewish achievments...
Jewish art, scientific contributions, etc. are considerable achievements, and they are -always- showcased in these museums. Look them up, I did.

Bullshit. There were those who fought, until they got their asses kicked. The others fled when their commrades got their asses kicked. So, when they started a war killing Israelis, lost ,then ran, of course they are not getting their land back... LOL!!! It's not like israelis just rolled up on them and started knocking off villages to take the land. These people attacked Israel, and were rightfully defeated. The remaining cowards ran away after they had attacked.
The last time I tried to debate this issue with you, I brought some facts to the table and you fled. Let's try again. The quotes are backed up by IDF archives that show there was tons of incidents of rapes, massacres and burning of villages. If you're too lazy to read all of it, just read the highlighted text in the quotes.

First Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion begs to differ.

"There is a reason to believe that what is being done . . . is being done out of certain political objectives and not only out of military necessities, as they claim sometimes. In fact, the transfer of the Arabs from the boundaries of the Jewish state is being implemented . . . the evacuation/clearing out of Arab villages is not always done out of military necessity. The complete destruction of the villages is not always done only because there are no sufficient forces to maintain a garrison." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 181)

Yosef Weitz, director of the Land and Afforestation Department of the Jewish National Fund also disagrees:

"[...] question of evacuating/clearing out the [Palestinian] Arabs. ...[ten days later] [we] must direct our war towards the removal of as many Arabs as possible from boundaries of out state. The guarding of their property after their removal is a secondary question. Finally it was agreed that I would submit a proposal for [Arab] removal from localities based on my considerations." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 186)"

"...the transfer of [Palestinian] Arab population from the area of the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 94-95)

"The creation of the Hebrew State in part of the country [Eretz Yisrael] is the beginning of complete redemption. ....How should we solve the question of the Arabs who constitute half of the state population? ..... I have been working day and night in these days on the calculation of the land in the Hebrew state ..... Indeed we still need to redeem much until most of the cultivated land will be our property." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 182)

So does Moshe Dayan, the fourth chief of staff of the IDF (and also defence minister and foreign minister):

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

"[houses were destroyed] not in battle, but as punishment [...] and in order to chase away the inhabitants [...] contrary to government policy." (Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 328)

These quotes are accurate, I've checked and rechecked them several times, no one denies their authenticity.

Back in the first half of the 20th century, the conquest of land was perceived as an achievement, and the conquest of the southern Levant was a source of pride for the creators of the State of Israel. And who can blame them, it was a time when the mentality of colonialism was still widespread amongst world leaders. In the late sixties and early seventies however, leaders of Israel started to realize that the story had to change, that what they had done would not be so popular in the new world of hippies, civil rights activism, ethnic equality, etc. So the story changed: the land was no longer conquered, it had been empty, waiting for the arrival of the Jews. The entire history and identity of the original population was attempted to be deleted. Golda Meir made here famous quote:

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
(Mrs. Golda Meir. Statement to "The Sunday Times", 15 June, 1969.)


It is this new public relations policy that's being echoed when Mr. pheromone says "The fact is that much of the "Palestinian" land is occupied by immigrants from other Arab countries." He says this in spite of the fact that Ottoman and British population counts show that there was indeed a substantial population living in the land way before Jews arrived, and that it, together with the birthrate of this population shows that there was, if any, very little immigration from other Arab countries during this period. There's also genetic evidence as well as cultural, historic and linguistic references to document and confirm that the population did indeed exist. Sources may be provided if needed.

This attempt to change history by Israel failed miserably and backfired, the result was the strengthening of the modern Palestinian national identity.

That's only partially accurate. In Europe it was indeed the case that when speaking about Jews living in the area, one called them "Palestinians". However, that was not the only use of the word. This issue is so basic that I will simply refer you to some Wikipedia articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestinian_nationality

Facts are never a bitch, if you have any, please come forth with them. It would be wise of you to try and document them though, as the "facts" you've presented so far are mostly fiction from the books of Joan Peters, Alan Dershowitz and Efraim Karsh. And you don't even bother to use the fallacious documentation they provided, which I'd sure like to debunk.

You might be mistaking me for someone else, I don't recall having said anything about mass genocide. I don't even recall having conversed with you previously. If you're referring to the massacres mentioned by Israeli leaders prior to the change in PR policy by Golda Meir, I'd be happy to document that for you. But I sincerely believe that is a can of worms you do not want to open, as you're here mainly to protect and defend the name of Israel, and not to talk about truth and reality.

Quote from phenomena:

Quit with the strawmen, no one said it was stolen by the same people we call "Palestinians" today. Who cares if it consisted of people who had moved from Europe. WTF does that matter.. No the romans tossing jews out doesnt legitimize the removal of another people. The pals attacking and trying to eliminate them, then getting their sorry asses kicked and running away does however.
There's no strawmen. Mister a_person did not say that the Palestinians stole the land, he conveniently left it out.

The Palestinians were facing immigrants who openly and without remorse came to the land with the purpose of replacing the indigenous population. Yes, some Palestinians fought them (Like anybody else would fight for their land and livelihood anywhere in the world), but very far from all did. Yet, the majority of Palestinians were removed, according to the plan the Zionists had laid out long before 1948. Is it a coincidence that the Zionists laid out plans for removing the population, and later on did remove the population? Stop playing a lawyer, get real.

Well I guess you are saying the UK, France, and the UN are very religious since they are the ones who created a Jewish state on that piece of land... [/B]
The UK and France were guilt-ridden. For the Jewish people, the Holocaust was a horrific tragedy of epic proportions. For the Zionists, it was the best thing that could ever happen.
 
Quote from phenomena:

There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.
These statements contravened the PLO charter, which affirms the existence of a Palestinian people with national rights (wikipedia). Mister Zuheir Mohsen was an Arab nationalist fighting for Arab unity. He was loyal to Syrian-Baathist ideology, and he probably said this because he recognized that the Palestinian identity would be a threat to Pan-Arabism. He's no authority on the issue, just another man with another agenda. Not unlike yourself, he says anything to push that agenda, true or false.

Factually, he's wrong. Information on this is available everywhere. For instance, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestinian_nationality
 
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