Ayn Rand and trading...

[Stosh]

Quote from Angrycat:

That's the claim of every person who proposes socialist ideas. However, stating that this is what will happen doesn't make it so.

So far, the only place where the rich get richer (by capitalizing on their political connections because they can buy political power by buying politicians) and the poor get poorer (because they have no means with which to buy politicians, thus the deck is permanently stacked against them) is in economies where government is strong and meddles freely in the economy.

Without the ability to harness political power (and governments monopoly on violent force), the rich man can only obtain the property of the poorer man by paying a price the poorer man will accept. In a free market with a government which maintains Rule of Law (not to be confused with regulation) but is limited in its power beyond that, that is his only means of obtaining another's property. The poorer man can also capitalize on his advantages in a free market. There is nothing to stop him - no barriers to entry concocted by government regulators at the prodding of industry insiders to protect them from competition. With a government as powerful as the one in the United States and Europe, despite constitutional attempts to limit it, the rich man simply pays a bribe to politicians and the poorer mans property is confiscated under "eminent domain" laws. Thus, government aids the rich in getting richer and the poor in getting poorer because the government is nothing more than a collection of self-interested people with a lot of power to yield force and cow the population.

So, it seems that the very thing that you fear happens not because of free markets but because of the very system you advocate. So, you'll have to explain to me how you come to your conclusions about free markets (laissez-faire).

Well said, Angrycat. To slightly change the subject, what would be your ideal as far as voter qualifications? I understand that restrictions on voting are very dangerous, but on the other hand letting every lazy, no account freeloader's vote count the same as a hard working, tax paying, responsible person is sort of like two wolves and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner. Stosh

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from Angrycat:

...The poorer man can also capitalize on his advantages in a free market. There is nothing to stop him - no barriers to entry concocted by government regulators at the prodding of industry insiders to protect them from competition...

...So, you'll have to explain to me how you come to your conclusions about free markets (laissez-faire).

I urge you to read Titan: The Life of John D. Rockefeller, Sr. by Chernow. It is an excellent biography and will illustrate through history the barriers to entry posed in an under-regulated environment. Rockefeller did a lot of things in the name of the greater good. Some were, and some weren't. Anyone looking for a good book to read will find one in Titan.

As for laissez-faire economics, where to begin? Please read anything by John Kenneth Galbraith, as his writings are far better than anything I could offer on the subject.

 

[Craig66]

I have not read any of Rand's works, but have had the chance to interact with a number of proponents of Rand's work and almost without exception they were unreconstructed narcissistic assholes. Like all subscribers to preset points of view they spent all their time cherry picking and distorting the facts to fit their world views, anybody who disagreed with their somewhat naive world views was dismissed as 'irrational'.

Whilst you certainly cannot judge a band by it's fans, this has certainly not encouraged me to delve deeper into the subject.

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from Craig66:

I have not read any of Rand's works, but have had the chance to interact with a number of proponents of Rand's work and almost without exception they were unreconstructed narcissistic assholes. Like all subscribers to preset points of view they spent all their time cherry picking and distorting the facts to fit their world views, anybody who disagreed with their somewhat naive world views was dismissed as 'irrational'.

Whilst you certainly cannot judge a band by it's fans, this has certainly not encouraged me to delve deeper into the subject.

Craig! Where have you been all this time?

 

[Daal]

Quote from Craig66:

I have not read any of Rand's works, but have had the chance to interact with a number of proponents of Rand's work and almost without exception they were unreconstructed narcissistic assholes

This is true, objectivists tend to be extremists who just repeat rand's words and cant think for themselves. rand was right on some things and wrong in others just like any other person

 

[guavaman]

Quote from Daal:

This is true, objectivists tend to be extremists

What percentage of the total number of "Objectivists" in the world have you met that you can make such a claim?

 

[Daal]

Quote from guavaman:

What percentage of the total number of "Objectivists" in the world have you met that you can make such a claim?

I've read and saw a number of interviews from the Ayn Rand Institute people(peikoff, brook and others). nathaniel branden himself has made that complaint, topics in message boards that talk about rand usually invoke objectivists guardians that call anybody who disagrees with her a collectivist communist. I'm sure that there are exceptions(like david kelly) though

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from guavaman:

What percentage of the total number of "Objectivists" in the world have you met that you can make such a claim?

Are you at all familiar with sampling theory?

 

[wutangfinancial]

Ayn Rand is for little kids.

I'm 23 and have already grown out of that shit. Ayn Rand is to philosophy what Scientology is to religion.

As far as applications to economics, game theory pretty much refutes the so-called "virtue of selfishness." Non-cooperation often leads to a lower equilibrium pay off for all players. Basically, you cannot try to apply one overly simplistic ideology to create an ideal economic system. Some times collectivism is ideal, sometimes it is not...you have to look at it on a case by case basis.

 

[Thunderdog]

Dear Sir or Madam:

You have a Beautiful Mind.