Average profit % / month for PRO traders

Quote from boba15:

Maybe you will be willing to share your thought process, not particular details of strategies you developed?

Like, initially you've been trading for 10 years and then something suddenly clicked and the idea came to your mind. Or 10 years of toil and tears which gradually led to the result. Or heard something from somebody which gave a clue, etc. This kind of things. Methodology of devising a strategy. Thanks.


Here are some posts I made to a different thread that might help a bit.

To you new guys to this thread who are trying to figure out the world of options. I'd like to make a comment that I hope you'll take seriously. If you do it will dramatically shorten the path to where you are going to end up in trading.

Once you've studied options to the point where analysis of greeks is effortless, you'll have an epiphany. Trading far OTM credit spreads is a losing strategy, as is any other random entry strategy in options. There are only two ways to make good money trading. One is to find an edge, and the other is to develop good directional skill.

If you learn how to recognize an edge in options, you'll soon realize how pointless it is to trade these credit spreads.

If you develop good directional skill you'll realize that there is more money to be made directionally in trading the e-minis.

Either way, you're going to abandon these credit spreads, so you might as well try to develop those future skills now rather than wasting a bunch of time with low delta credit spreads.

Then a bit of follow up elaboration...

Edge in options trading does exist, but not for one who doesn't understand the greeks, because the edge is in the greeks. IOW, is the market pricing in more or less volatility than they should be, according to your more accurate pricing model. Or for one reason or another, did the ATM Nov go out of whack compared to the ATM Dec options. Edge here is had in developing a model that is more accurate than the market at predicting future price action.

If you don't have that more accurate model, then by default the market is pricing the options more accurately than you are, and the more complex your positions get, the greater the losses become. Granted, often times the options at a certain strike will go so far out of whack as to be completely noticeable without any sophisticated pricing model. But the point remains, that the edge must exist. The more accurate and sophisticated the model is, the more subtle the edge can be. If your doing all the math on the fly, then the mis-pricings will need to be glaringly obvious for consistent profits.

If you aren't up for devoting yourself to the development of an accurate greek based model, then IMO the only choice left for you is to become a skilled trader. Generally this skill is in trading direction. Is it going up or down, when, and by how much? You can certainly do this with options, but then the greeks are just an annoyance. You'll buy ATM calls because you think the underlying will rise. It will in fact rise, but a vol collapse will actually cause the calls to decrease in value. What I'm saying is that as you are still paying no attention to the greeks, their effect on your option position is completely random and in the long run will neither hurt or help you, but rather just annoy you. So if you decide to purely trade direction, then you'll switch to futures rather than options.

I'm referring mainly to the E-mini S&P. These are futures contracts listed on CME exchange and traded over Globex system which is all electronic, as opposed to the open outcry pit traded method.

Subsequently, ES (s&p e-minis) has $0.25 ticks and standing orders are shown in a depth matrix. There are no greeks to worry about. You are simply trading the S&P index straight up. Long or Short. But you are levered pretty heavily. ES has a 50 multiplier, which means that if you have 1 contract and the futures increase by $1, your account will increase by $50. This is not to be confused with leverage due to low margin requirement. ES is currently trading @ 1120, but my broker doesn't require $1120 to purchase a contract. They require $1250, but some I think only require $500 initial margin. In that case you can see that not only are you getting a 50X nominal multiplier, but also 2.24X margin leverage. In effect, you are then getting 112X total leverage on your dollar.

Obviously then, if you are trading a $2K account with a $500 margin requirement, you don't want to buy 4 contracts. A 10-point S&P drop would wipe you out. But if you control your leverage, and build up your directional skill then large consistent profits are attainable without a model edge. Your edge is then your ability to read the market.

That somewhat shows the mental path moving from options to futures. After that I started to get much better at direction. TONS of screen time and an above average memory and ability to correlate repeating occurrences. Exhausting analysis of various popular methods like candlestick patterns, Fibonacci, etc...

In short, almost all of it proved to be garbage except when used under very specific conditions. Threw it all out because it wasn't useful then. Continued with tape reading and basic TA (support/resistance, channels, floors/ceilings).

Then the Yen carry trade began making headlines constantly, and sparked a thought. Subsequent analysis was done on the hidden correlations between the major indices and the worlds major currencies. Inflation/Deflation effects on market values. MUCH more nonsensical noise in FX market that I had to sort through.

I've already shared too much, but in a nutshell, there were a few Ah Ha moments, but I didn't just stumble across them. A decade of diligent work.
 
Cache thank you for sharing that. I think it is truly amazing how right you are and how uncannily similar is my experience to yours over approximately the same amount of time.

I can tell though as I've mentioned before that you are several steps more developed than I am as a trader - though I dont feel very far behind.

May I ask you: what is the best way to keep track of my drawdowns automatically - without having to note it reviewing the charts?

Thanks.
 
"I've already shared too much, but in a nutshell, there were a few Ah Ha moments, but I didn't just stumble across them. A decade of diligent work."

AMEN

BROTHER

A word about the prop futures model: There is no portfolio allocation per se; a trader is given his risk limits and position sizing limits by management and that's it. And a very good prop futures trader (a minority for sure) can return 100% per month. Honestly - not uncommon. Now, he will have some expenses and will split it with management but it is entirely doable. The trick is to use leverage (futures), convince management that your strategy is viable and consistent (they all understand spread and arbitrage) and commence to offset your margin requirements with SPAN offsets.

Example: I can have on a 1,000 lot Eurodollar spread position intraday and easily use less than $100K in margin doing it. The SPAN margin for a Eurodollar spread is like $360 the last time I looked. If I can average a full tic per day after it's all said and done - it's not FU money but it's a very, very good living. And I've been doing it for 18 years now. Conservative strategy scienced out and leveraged to the hilt.
 
Quote from bone:


AMEN

BROTHER

A word about the prop futures model: There is no portfolio allocation per se; a trader is given his risk limits and position sizing limits by management and that's it. And a very good prop futures trader (a minority for sure) can return 100% per month. Honestly - not uncommon. Now, he will have some expenses and will split it with management but it is entirely doable. The trick is to use leverage (futures), convince management that your strategy is viable and consistent (they all understand spread and arbitrage) and commence to offset your margin requirements with SPAN offsets.

Example: I can have on a 1,000 lot Eurodollar spread position intraday and easily use less than $100K in margin doing it. The SPAN margin for a Eurodollar spread is like $360 the last time I looked. If I can average a full tic per day after it's all said and done - it's not FU money but it's a very, very good living. And I've been doing it for 18 years now. Conservative strategy scienced out and leveraged to the hilt.

Sure, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the concept that a good trader can make a very good living if trading prop. I'm quite familiar with the way a standard prop shop operates. But stated returns are quite different for prop guys than any other retail trader or fund manager.

If I calculated my returns the way prop guys do, then the returns I mentioned above of 25-40% monthly would be adjusted to 150-240% monthly and the best month would be about 630% return. I'd be on track to make about 6,000% this year. My point is that the prop method for stating returns, greatly inflates the numbers while the underlying net dollar values are the same.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just making sure that comments are compared under like conditions. My strat is NOT a "conservative strat scienced out and leveraged to the hilt". I actually don't use much leverage at all. 2X leverage is normal for me. Risk of blow up or even 20% drawdown is virtually non-existent under even the worst conditions imaginable.
 
Cache, I am in complete agreement with you, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

A prop futures trader, a prop equities trader, an independent equity trader, independent futures trader, CTA, equity relative value hedge fund portfolio manager, prop options market-maker at Prime or Ronin, etc. etc.; if you look at their performance just in terms of rate-of-return and Sharpe Ratio it's not a balanced picture and surely isn't a decent criteria to judge trader performance taken on it's face value. Especially since there are so many different ways that a trader can lever a strategy. And it makes stock "RoR" claims at least for me highly suspect and to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
Anything is possible...

Some people are professional traders

others, such as myself, are professional gamblers.

The difference, if there is a difference, is that one is happy with a bird in the hand and the other cannot be happy without the two in the bush.
 
Quote from MightyOne:

Anything is possible...

Some people are professional traders

others, such as myself, are professional gamblers.

The difference, if there is a difference, is that one is happy with a bird in the hand and the other cannot be happy without the two in the bush.

LOL... I like that, but there is really a difference between the two. Long term expectancy. If negative, you are gambling. If positive, you are not gambling. Plain and simple.
 
Quote from anesthesiaman:

Hello all,

I have been trading options since 1999 - before med school. But I only traded a little since my focus was on medicine. Fortunately I was able to learn to trade while in school.

Throughout the years of schooling and trading very little here and there because of studying and time commitments - I still kept up with the markets.

Now, 2 yrs out of residency on May 25, 2010, I decided to take my 1 month PaperMoney futures account LIVE. I have never traded futures before but always knew about the mechanics of trading.

(PS - In reference to other threads I see here in this forum, I average up and down just depending on the price action I see, also keep a journal, 1-2% rule, 6% rule, avoid overtrading, etc. blah blah)

Starting with a 49k account, I was able to do 6.7% since May 25 - two months ago. I can do 2-3% / month pretty easily I think.

I just want to compare my results since I'm new to the world of semi-pro trading. (Yes, I'd eventually like to go pro and do anesthesiolgoy part time but I need to use a 1 million trading account and make and easy 2-3% / month to support my lifestyle).

I will be doubling my account at the end of the month to 100k and continue to trade the way I do - price action.

Can ANY of the pro traders here - those who trade for a living as their only income - tell me what is the average profit % / month for pro traders? For ex: 2%/ month? 6%? 10%?

been trading as my sole source of income since about 2004 and have never really looked at my % gain ....reason why is i trade whatever i feel comfortable with, whenever i start setting goals of i need to make $xxx or X% i either get complacent when ahead of that goal or feel the need to meet the goal if i'm behind.....also another reason why i don't keep track is i trade mainly otcbb/pinks and its really not scaleable over 100k so at the end of every qtr i withdraw back down to 100k but if i was keeping track % wise i would say 10-50% per month
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

Here are some posts I made to a different thread that might help a bit.



Then a bit of follow up elaboration...



That somewhat shows the mental path moving from options to futures. After that I started to get much better at direction. TONS of screen time and an above average memory and ability to correlate repeating occurrences. Exhausting analysis of various popular methods like candlestick patterns, Fibonacci, etc...

In short, almost all of it proved to be garbage except when used under very specific conditions. Threw it all out because it wasn't useful then. Continued with tape reading and basic TA (support/resistance, channels, floors/ceilings).

Then the Yen carry trade began making headlines constantly, and sparked a thought. Subsequent analysis was done on the hidden correlations between the major indices and the worlds major currencies. Inflation/Deflation effects on market values. MUCH more nonsensical noise in FX market that I had to sort through.

I've already shared too much, but in a nutshell, there were a few Ah Ha moments, but I didn't just stumble across them. A decade of diligent work.

Cache Landing, thank you for all the information. I am currently on the credit spread kick and doing pretty well, with a small account, but I am trying to move into futures and will take all you have posted in to consideration.

Thank you for your insights.
 
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