Average daily profit with $50K account?

Quote from icarus618:

I think you misunderstood the graph and excerpt.

The graph represents various market operating points. If you use set-ups, edges, etc., sub in those terms. The excerpt states that upper left to lower right is the path to follow for a person learning to trade futures intraday; i.e., it is a CHOICE to follow a path that begins with high profit/low risk trades only and then moving on to other trades as your skills increase.

The point of the post was to state that in trading (in contrast to investing) the profit/risk profile is all over the place. Some have followed up here confirming that point. I'm not interested in debating or changing anyone's mind. I'm just putting what I know out there.

That being said, your post does raise the interesting question of where the actual source of trading risk lies. Is it in the market? (Risk is not uniform across various market operating points regardless of trader skill level.) Is it in the trader? (Risk is inversely related to trader skill level; i.e., if a trader is good enough, any operating point can be low risk.) Or is it a combination of both? I'll leave that for you to consider.

Another question is, is it possible or likely for someone learning to trade on his or her own to be able to recognize if a trade is high, average, or low risk? That's another can of worms.
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After reading that explanation, I still don't think it makes sense.

Why would you start making more risky/less payoff trades as you get more experienced?
 
I never said compounding makes me mad. I said I'm content to make $500 per day and have no intention of scaling up even if my account is $1M. Sure, with a $50k account I go up to 9 ES contracts. Compounding that way, with a $1M account I could go up to 180 ES contracts but seeing $9,000 per point would probably make me shit myself. That's more money than most people make in a month. PER POINT.

By the time I got that much money I would have it in long term investments (the kind where percentage DOES matter), anyway.
 
Quote from 1a2b3cppp:

I never said compounding makes me mad. I said I'm content to make $500 per day and have no intention of scaling up even if my account is $1M. Sure, with a $50k account I go up to 9 ES contracts. Compounding that way, with a $1M account I could go up to 180 ES contracts but seeing $9,000 per point would probably make me shit myself. That's more money than most people make in a month. PER POINT.

By the time I got that much money I would have it in long term investments (the kind where percentage DOES matter), anyway.
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9 contracts on the line with a $50,000 account should make you shit yourself as well. It is my guess you do not trade at all. Thats almost 1% per ES point.

What happens when the price just keeps going the other way? Double up? Then triple.. then... BOOM! JP has your 50 large.
 
Quote from 1a2b3cppp:

Yes. Because that's an INVESTMENT (eg. I am essentially buying and holding by giving them my money) so percentage is relevant.

Percentages are relevent for hedge funds, mutual funds, long term stock trades, etc.

Not for traders.

Saying that percentage matters for traders implies that you HAVE to scale up as your account grows, otherwise you start doing "worse."

Remember the example where you and I make the same trades all year, but your account is $1M and mine is $10k. We did the same. Unless you traded 100 times bigger than me with each position, then we got the same PERCENTAGE.
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You do not understand risk management, you are showing it by this previous post. Percentages aren't relevant for traders? Seriously?
 
Sort of right. As a trader:

* I have as little account for trading as I need reasonably for the amount of contracts I am comfortable trading, including in between drawdowns.
* I possibly am prepared to occasionally blow up my limited trading funds. Like once every 2-3 years.... and refund the account from reserve.

The point is that it simply is inefficient to keep more money in a trading account than needed. End of month, take money out. Some goes into reserve / investments, some goes into living. From reserve some point some goes back into trading when trading is "upped" to more risk per trade.

But the later one is not compunding - it is also a matter of comfort with the risk movements.

So, you dont start with X usd and get percentage of it - you start with "comfortable risk per trade" and move back to "how much money do I need". Risk per trade must be less than the percent you may be sensible risking from a percentage risk point of view, but is your comfort level. And from that you then calculate how much money your account should have.

Which blows up percentages, too. Because you keep capital investment small.

The rest goes into "investment". Funds, bonds, whatever ;) Well, whaetever yields at least a nominal return in USD, so no beer and hookers ;)
 
take $40K out of your account, trade one lot or minimal shares untill you are consistent. then scale up only every one to two months at a time. Once you are consistent scale up slowly again. You will then have all the answers you need
 
you can't trade $50M+ like $500,000 for sure!
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Ridiculous!

You mean like 99.9% of hedge fund managers? They need to get new careers?

I don;t get it,
 
They don't TRADE as in DAYTRADE. You can not move in and out of the market in seconds if you are that large.

The consensus here you ignore is that "Trading" is assumed to be "short term trading within a significantly smaller period than a session".

What hey do is swing trading (days to weeks). And that in baskets of instruments (multiple stock etc.).

The asusmption so far on the other side of the discussion was fast trading - look at the 1200 USD published result with 46 trades IN A DAY. That is severely limited in liquidity. No way to scale that up to a 50 million USD fund.
 
and how man billions was he trading?

Just f*** stupid to compare the two.

$1B I'd be happy with 6%

$500,000 I'd need a lot more than 6%

see the difference?
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For all you high flyers out there making 1% a day remember that Bernie Madoff only promised 12% a year and he couldn't achieve that.
 
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