attack religion without fear

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

History has also not fully revealed the greatness of some people in the past.

It is just as logically possible that Jesus was actually greater than reported.

Given your doubting of history, it is logically possible to think that much of what Jesus did was not recorded, and that may have been his best work.

So logically, neither a negative nor a positive tone are warranted when there is a lack of direct evidence.

p.s. Virgin birth is possible today, Lesbians prove that, so who is to say that it was impossible then. We just don't know....

As an example, even without technology, a virgin woman could take some sperm and shove it up her vagina, stand on her head, and it is possible for that sperm to fertilize an egg.

So we don't know the stories of Virgin Birth or Resurrection are false, we just don't know them to be true.

The problem with atheists is they try to project as if they are being logical with their dogmatic position, but invariably they demonstrate what a closed minded position they actually have.

Quote from vhehn:

we cant prove anything about jesus because there is no outside evidence. in fact there is no evidence outside the bible that jesus even existed although most skeptics will concede that a man named jesus probably existed and was killed by the romans.
what we are left with is deductive reasoning. we now know that the virgin birth story was a fable and we also know that the resurrection story was a fable made up by his followers. what we are left with is a simple jewish preacher who was killed by the romans and was later lifted to deity status by his followers.
it is somewhat like john kennedy. he was a flawed man who probably would not have even been reelected buy by being killed by an assassin was raised to hero status over time.
have you ever heard the saying" "those who write the history books control history"

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

History has also not fully revealed the greatness of people in the past.

It is just as logically possible that Jesus was actually greater than reported.

maybe. in that case we have to look at his words. the evidence we have if you believe the bible, says he was prone to lying much the same as tv preachers today.

Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

John chapter 14:14:
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 7:7 :

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 6:25
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all."

Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Mark 16:15 :

And [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

You are not looking to the words of Jesus, you are looking at the words of men who are claiming to be reporting what Jesus said, reporting of words that by the way, have been translated and altered how many times?

The point is that we don't know. If you have an opinion, that is faith, just as much as those who have a theist opinion have faith.

Quote from vhehn:

maybe. in that case we have to look at his words. the evidence we have if you believe the bible, says he was prone to lying much the same as tv preachers today.

Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

John chapter 14:14:
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 7:7 :

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 6:25
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all."

Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Mark 16:15 :

And [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
The problem with atheists is they try to project as if they are being logical with their dogmatic position, but invariably they demonstrate what a closed minded position they actually have. [/B]

actually i dont have a closed mind. so far in my life i have spent 50 years as a believer, 5 years as an unbeliever and the second i see any new evidence to indicate god\jesus exists i will be a believer again.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

You are not looking to the words of Jesus, you are looking at the words of men who men, who by the way, have been translated and altered how many time/

this we agree on.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Then we agree that there is no way to know if the words are true or false, or genuinely representative of the words and acts of Jesus.

Consequently, there is no logical reason to doubt them necessarily as untrue.

Quote from vhehn:

this we agree on.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Then we agree that there is no way to know if the words are true or false, or genuinely representative of the words and acts of Jesus.

Consequently, there is no logical reason to doubt them necessarily as untrue.

you used the word altered. if the story is altered we can assume it was altered to fit the beliefs of the one who altered it.

al·ter (ôl'tər)

v., -tered, -ter·ing, -ters.

v.tr.
To change or make different; modify: altered my will.
To adjust for a better fit.

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

I tried to ignore him but his last self serving post was too much.

Note how much thought must have gone into his cuting and pasting.

I think only a sociopath could make such a clear lie when confronted by the truth as he was crafting his cut and paste lie. All the while knowing that you would be caught.

-------------

Quote from stu:
What a lot of Rubbish. I made no such presumption or anything to that effect. My question specifically asked... if it was your consideration that the destruction of the middle east was jesus's intention.

Here it is, as posted...
"JEM you do not consider the destruction of the middle east to be God's or Jesus's intention? .. Could you explain yourself any better then? ....."

There is no mention of cause in my question . You have to make that extrapolation yourself, which you do and then blame me for making it and by so doing, show nothing more than your usual weak minded dishonest reaction.

My questioning remark,... "presumably you consider to be God's or Jesus's intention" ... does not presume cause. Since when did intention presume cause. You, a lawyer??,.. don't make me laugh.
----------


So I wrote

Just to show what a madman you are here is your full quote where your presumption is revealed.!

"To top things off, you infer endorsement of all that with implied threats of your own. The destruction of the middle east, which presumably you consider to be God's or Jesus's intention, along with the inference that I must choose to accept the terms and ideas of these mass murderous exterminators, or go to the 'burn place'."

....

Just what on earth is it you can't understand??
Do you think perhaps were you to stop making all those insulting remarks , we might be able to discuss this civily and get some better appreciation of what it is?

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

I don't assume anything necessarily about what actually happened that we don't have verification of. Who can say that one alternation, isn't cancelled by another alteration to return to an accurate description?

Quote from vhehn:

you used the word altered. if the story is altered we can assume it was altered to fit the beliefs of the one who altered it.

al·ter (ôl'tər)

v., -tered, -ter·ing, -ters.

v.tr.
To change or make different; modify: altered my will.
To adjust for a better fit.

 

[acronym]

A better thread title, given religion is based exclusively on fear and uncertainty of the unknown, might be

"Attack fear..........without religion."


No?