Atheism is the absolute denial of the absolute

Quote from peilthetraveler:



I personally think when you argue with me about God that you are really trying to convince yourself that you are right.
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no it just amazes me that there are still people like you around. you think the bible is inerrant. one has to be willfully ignorant to cling to that belief.
i was reminded of the willful ignorance of people like you tonight. i just got home from a motorcycle ride where i got caught in a rainstorm. after the storm passed there was a big beautiful rainbow. if you believe the bible inerrant you have to believe the story that god made that rainbow as a sign that he would never send a flood to murder the population of the earth again. as an educated man you should know how rainbows are formed from light reflecting off water. what does an intellectually honest educated man have to do to his mind to believe such tales. do you turn off your ability to think critically? do you actually believe it never rained before the flood?
i can understand how primitive men could come up with such a tale but whats your excuse?

The Prophecy Farce
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/983front.html
 
Quote from peilthetraveler:

If you really had read both you would know the answer to that.

(reading a few pages from both books doesnt count. Thats like someone reading a few pages of a mystery novel and then saying there is no way to find out whodunit.)
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I've read both in their entirety. I read the bible - both Old and New testament when I was in m early teens, and I was religious then too.

You know what I found? The old testament had a freakin pissed off, insecure god that put ridiculous demands on people and preferred one race over all other "insignificant" races. I thought he created all mankind? Why did he prefer and only show himself to one race over the others? You know why? Most religions are race-centric to justify treating fellow human beings like garbage. So you don't feel guilty conquering and looting and raping the non-believers.

The 4 books of the New testament (Luke, Matthew...) I found very uplifting. Jesus was a great philosopher - kind, charismatic, free of materialism, forgiving, always sharing.... everything many of today's christians are not. And then I read Revelation - and I was scared to death. I thought that I and my family would go to hell if we were not perfect. I was fifteen years old when I read that garbage that I later found out was written by a crackpot on an island with ulterior motives.

After much thinking and researching, I realized that no one has the answer, and I felt free. Still do.

And you know what else? I don't behave and help others because someone will give me a cookie (heaven/reward). I do it because I believe in humanity. If there is a true and just god, I would think he would be impressed that I acted morally because I chose to, and not because I feared (punishment) hell.
 
Quote from Misthos:

I've read both in their entirety. I read the bible - both Old and New testament when I was in m early teens, and I was religious then too.

You know what I found? The old testament had a freakin pissed off, insecure god that put ridiculous demands on people and preferred one race over all other "insignificant" races. I thought he created all mankind? Why did he prefer and only show himself to one race over the others? You know why? Most religions are race-centric to justify treating fellow human beings like garbage. So you don't feel guilty conquering and looting and raping the non-believers.

The 4 books of the New testament (Luke, Matthew...) I found very uplifting. Jesus was a great philosopher - kind, charismatic, free of materialism, forgiving, always sharing.... everything many of today's christians are not. And then I read Revelation - and I was scared to death. I thought that I and my family would go to hell if we were not perfect. I was fifteen years old when I read that garbage that I later found out was written by a crackpot on an island with ulterior motives.

After much thinking and researching, I realized that no one has the answer, and I felt free. Still do.

And you know what else? I don't behave and help others because someone will give me a cookie (heaven/reward). I do it because I believe in humanity. If there is a true and just god, I would think he would be impressed that I acted morally because I chose to, and not because I feared (punishment) hell.
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Old testament Hebrew God has none of the commonly understood notions of hell..
New Testament Jesus brought the generally common imaginary concept of hell.

So much for that "great philosopher - kind, charismatic, free of materialism, forgiving, always sharing.... everything many of today's christians are not."

Seems it is as it was ever was as far as the day's christians are concerned.

How did you miss that? The Jesus character could threaten as well as any christian today.

If you want to behave properly in the interests of humanity as you say, why would you ever condone anything including some old writings, that threaten however absurdly, the humanity you say you believe in.
 
Quote from stu:

Old testament Hebrew God has none of the commonly understood notions of hell..
New Testament Jesus brought the generally common imaginary concept of hell.

So much for that "great philosopher - kind, charismatic, free of materialism, forgiving, always sharing.... everything many of today's christians are not."

Seems it is as it was ever was as far as the day's christians are concerned.

How did you miss that? The Jesus character could threaten as well as any christian today.

If you want to behave properly in the interests of humanity as you say, why would you ever condone anything including some old writings, that threaten however absurdly, the humanity you say you believe in.
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It depends on how you view the New testamanet. The first 4 books and everything else are quite different. Jesus didn't start getting revengeful and mean until after the first 4 books.

I wonder why? Was it because they were organizing the religion and forming a church and trying to control people?

And by the way... I'm not so sure Jesus even existed. I wasn't there. But you have to admit, there is a different Jesus between the books with the pissed off vengeful Jesus showing up at the end in Revelation. Interesting history there on how that book was added to the "Bible."
 
Quote from Misthos:

It depends on how you view the New testamanet. The first 4 books and everything else are quite different. Jesus didn't start getting revengeful and mean until after the first 4 books.

I wonder why? Was it because they were organizing the religion and forming a church and trying to control people?

And by the way... I'm not so sure Jesus even existed. I wasn't there. But you have to admit, there is a different Jesus between the books with the pissed off vengeful Jesus showing up at the end in Revelation. Interesting history there on how that book was added to the "Bible."
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Ah right. That's ok then.
You say Jesus was " kind, charismatic, free of materialism, forgiving, always sharing" up to a point You didn’t mention that.
So he wasn’t really all those things . He was for a little, then stopped and was no more, to become his true colors, revengeful and mean.

You think he became a complete bastard who would have every man woman and child burn for ….oh dear… something as serious as a few people organizing a church ?
That's enough to turn any kind, charismatic, forgiving, always sharing character into a non-charismatic, unforgiving selfish revengeful and mean sob I suppose.


Well we agree on one thing, although I would say it's more certain Bible Jesus didn't exist than he did.

However I'm still intrigued as to why you appear to need a probable fantasy figure which is Jesus to attach all your good deeds to rather that just the humanity you say it is meant for.
 
Quote from peilthetraveler:

The prophecies that came true are the proven facts. Theres your verifiable evidence. But I'm guessing you would never even consider looking at that to see if its true or not. You tell me I should look at who put the bible together and why. Do you do the same with scientific discoveries of the evolutionary kind? Do you know how carbon dating works? Do you know of the severe discrepencies with geologic dating methods? You should find out how that kind of stuff works and i think you will be quite shocked at how it works.

You want a safe general assumption? Everyone in the world is going to die one day, including you. If I am right and the bible is true, its seriously bad news for you. If you are right, then i would never know and you would not even get to gloat at how right you were!

I personally think when you argue with me about God that you are really trying to convince yourself that you are right.
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Christianity is verifiably a false religion. The creation story in Genesis absolutely did not happen. No Adam and Eve = no original sin= no need for a Messiah.

Those who devote their entire lives to full-time Christian service--what a waste of time.
 
Atheism is a religion in itself, rooted in politics, as most religions are. The true atheist is as goofy as the radical Christan/Muslim/insert religion here, fundamentalist. They're more interested in oppressing the views of others than just simply practicing their own beliefs.
Bottom line is that there is no way to know for sure how "all this" came to be, whether or not anything is still in some sort of control, or even gives a shit. What's on the other side of death...who knows? Heaven and Hell are right here, right now. We all make a choice daily as to where we will make our play. So place your bets and roll the dice. In the end we all know the house can't be beat and if you're reading this, you ain't the house.:eek:
 
Quote from CaptainObvious:

Atheism is a religion in itself, rooted in politics, as most religions are. The true atheist is as goofy as the radical Christan/Muslim/insert religion here, fundamentalist. They're more interested in oppressing the views of others than just simply practicing their own beliefs.
Bottom line is that there is no way to know for sure how "all this" came to be, whether or not anything is still in some sort of control, or even gives a shit. What's on the other side of death...who knows? Heaven and Hell are right here, right now. We all make a choice daily as to where we will make our play. So place your bets and roll the dice. In the end we all know the house can't be beat and if you're reading this, you ain't the house.:eek:
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Bullshit. No belief is not belief.
 
Quote from stu:

However I'm still intrigued as to why you appear to need a probable fantasy figure which is Jesus to attach all your good deeds to rather that just the humanity you say it is meant for.
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I didn't. As I said, I am an agnostic. I think you misread my post. I brought up Jesus in my post and compared the "good" Jesus, with the pissed off one to make a point.

In my view:

The first 4 books of the New Testament were written by the modern equivalent of hippies.

As the Christian church grew, it became an organized institution that as such, needed new recruits and methods of controlling them - hence the addition of the Book of Revelation (among others). You can't run a country based on hippedom - so the "new and improved" Jesus was introduced - you don't piss that guy off. It was a method of controlling people that the Church, as a growing institution needed.

Many of the stories of Jesus' life were derivative of other religions. And then you have Apollonius of Tyana... which is another plausible explanation to Jesus. But that's a whole other topic.
 
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