Ask Osama bin Laden
- Thread starter RCG Trader
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Cute. One problem, when a US citizen is accused of treason, he is still afforded his day in court. This should have been easy to prove yet the President purposely did not. Why? From article 3 section 3 of the United States Constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Three_of_the_United_States_Constitution
So, did this occur in Awlaki's case? No, it did not. And make no mistake, I am not suggesting he was a good guy. I am not suggesting he was a patriot and should have a statue erected in his honor. The problem I have is the subversion of the rule of law and the precedent it establishes.
If the President can murder one of our fellow citizens on only his say so (in direct violation of the document he swore to support and defend), without even so much as presenting proof or even redacted intelligence documents to a judge, than he (or the next one) can murder any one of us in the same manner.
The government has proven time and again that any power it gets will be expanded. When you look at that in conjunction with the NDAA, the Patriot Act, and our endless war on terror, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this thing is going.
F*uck Awlaki, I'm worried about the rest of us.
Your hyperbole aside, he was a US citizen and the Constitution has a process for dealing with US citizens who commit treason (i.e. enemy combatant would be a form of treason...for clarification see the excerpt from the Constitution I posted previously). The President swore an oath to defend the Constitution and he ignored that oath when he assassinated Awlaki. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say "well, if he's an enemy combatant just drop a bomb on him and it's all good". Being labeled an enemy combatant does not negate his Constitutional rights.
Oh, and your solution to the problem, which seems to be kill em all and be done with it, has one flaw. What if someone gets labeled an enemy combatant who was not, in fact, an enemy combatant? Should we just kill them anyway?
What if one day you post something on line and someone with authority takes it the wrong way and labels you an enemy combatant...would you support the application of your solution then?
You keep mixing apples and oranges. We're not talking about somebody who was merely accused of being an enemy combatant. he was an openly declared member of Al-Qaeda comingling with other known members of Al-Qaeda. Nobody but you is confused on what this guy was doing. We didn't have just two witnesses of his treason, we had over two billion witnesses of his treason. WTF are you confused about here? Videotapes still available online show exactly what that assmonkey was up to. Case closed. Quit the crocodile tears over any anti-American terrorist being killed by any President under any circumstances; it's ridiculous in this day and age.
unfortunately... leftists, liberals, and many republicans do not know that it is govt who is the enemy. A powerful govt only tries to get more powerful.
Govt is the enemy the Constitution is protecting us from. govt is the enemy which the founding fathers of the U.S. were saving the worlds people from.
The constitution and the inalienable rights granted by the Creator.... not man... not the gov.... cited by the founders is what paved the way for freedom of the next 200 or so years.
And it seems most liberals, leftists (of course they hate the constitution) and many republicans are happy to let their guy... destroy our freedom.
I am afraid for the future of a children because our citizens have become so ignorant as to the importance of the constitution.
I am confident the Supreme Court will strike this current threat down... But a few more leftys on the court and we could really be in trouble.
Govt is the enemy the Constitution is protecting us from. govt is the enemy which the founding fathers of the U.S. were saving the worlds people from.
The constitution and the inalienable rights granted by the Creator.... not man... not the gov.... cited by the founders is what paved the way for freedom of the next 200 or so years.
And it seems most liberals, leftists (of course they hate the constitution) and many republicans are happy to let their guy... destroy our freedom.
I am afraid for the future of a children because our citizens have become so ignorant as to the importance of the constitution.
I am confident the Supreme Court will strike this current threat down... But a few more leftys on the court and we could really be in trouble.
Actually, you keep forgetting that little caveat called due process. Calling someone an enemy combatant does not cancel out the Constitution. I feel I've been pretty clear on this.
And which two of those witnesses testified against him, in open court, as per the Constitution?
No confusion at all; I recognize this for what it is...a power grab on the part of the Executive branch that sets a precedent for future Presidents. If so much evidence exists, then there is no reason to skip having a trial. Awlaki did not even need to be there, and the rule of law could have been preserved. So ask yourself, why would the President of the United States go this route if he didn't have to? Like you said, EVERYONE knew he was a terrorist. EVERYONE saw his videos. 2 billion witnesses...so why circumvent the courts?
Case closed? More like case never tried. Like I said and you ignored, I am not concerned about Awlaki per se, I am concerned about how this precedent will be used going forward. This day and age, whatever that means, makes no difference. The President violated his oath of office, exceeded his powers, and should be impeached.
Unfortunately I do not share your confidence; this is not some ad hoc plan that is being rolled out at the last minute. If the SCOTUS stops this in its tracks, I will be amazed and grateful. However, I do not see that happening. In fact, it continues to go in the opposite direction.
As an example, it looks like KBR is activating those FEMA camps. You know, those FEMA camps that when mentioned would be laughed away as a conspiracy theory:
http://www.shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/RFIforKBR11-16-11.pdf
The army has added a new mos just for the occasion:
"Every soldier that enlists in the Army chooses a Military Occupational Specialty (MOS). Designated by a number and a letter, the 31E MOS now includes advanced responsibilities including command and control of prisoner of war and civilian internee camps."
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-07/news/30485067_1_command-and-control-custody-operation
We had a saying in intel...actually, we had a lot of sayings...but the one that seems most pertinent atm is this: you don't put on a condom unless you are going to f*ck.
Bullshit. If BHO had done as you said, you or plenty of others on your side would be chiding him for wasting time and US resources to try a terrorist who could have and "should have" been executed in the field. No matter what BHO does short of self-destructing, your ilk would find an excuse to complain about it. So whine away, nobody sane cares.
To point out the obvious, we issue deadly weapons to our policemen and military because not every criminal needs to be brought to trial. Sometimes a summary execution is fully justified. Like I said, we're talking about Al-Qaeda here. What part of "clear and present danger" don't you understand?
So now you are a mind reader? I didn't vote for Obama but I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. It did not take long into his presidency to erase that doubt.
You really don't get it do you? One day this enormous power can and most likely will be brought to bear against average Americans. Actually, the NDAA doesn't need to be expanded, it covers the average American...that's kind of my point. The Patriot act was sold as only to be used against terrorists, and ten years later we find it's being used mostly for drug investigations...why not all investigations...because that's what's next. The NDAA basically makes the worst parts of the Patriot Act permanent, by stealth. Anyone with a brain can see where this is going. If that does not include you, my apologies.
I understand that we created Al Qaeda. I understand that we train and support them one day only to have to fight them the next. I understand that, in spite of what you suggest, we are a nation of laws and Barack Hussein Obama has broken them. I also understand that you are blissfully unaware of what is truly going on in America right now. Maybe you are too young to have a point of reference, and this is all you know. That is a real tragedy, and the real danger of incremental-ism. At some point, a generation comes up and everything seems normal. That's when its really over.