Arguments Against Flat or ConsumptionTax?

[ktmexc20]

Quote from ktmexc20:
Well the segment is almost over but it will probably be replayed later....
David Cay Johnston (NY Times business reporter) is commenting in depth about the various loopholes and inadequate structures in the tax system on C-SPAN1 right now. Very interesting.

For anybody that might find it interesting, here is a link to the video archive of the David Cay Johnston interview and the recently released, very detailed Senatorial investigative report, that the interview was based on:

David Cay Johnston, New York Times, Business Reporter 8/4/2006: WASHINGTON, DC: 1 hr.
David Cay Johnston, New York Times, Business Reporter discusses his article on offshore tax shelters. The Senate Homeland Security Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations released a 400-page report at a hearing August 1 entitled, “Offshore Abuses: The Enablers, The Tools & Offshore Secrecy” on tax havens and offshore abuses. He wrote about the details of the report.

Tax Haven Abuses Report

 

[maxpi]

Quote from ktmexc20:

Well the segment is almost over but it will probably be replayed later....

David Cay Johnston (NY Times business reporter) is commenting in depth about the various loopholes and inadequate structures in the tax system on C-SPAN1 right now. Very interesting.

The tax system is a huge number of loopholes written for specific businesses and individuals that donate to campaigns, I have looked at it myself that is what it is, after the Reagan reforms and before. When they start complaining how it is too complicated or whatever, they just want to scrap it and write a lot of new loopholes for their current donors. Nothing will change unless the people force it. The flat tax will wind up with a zillion loopholes as well, just when you think they are changing something they quietly do the same thing to you again, it is what they do. It will be a lot harder to write such loopholes in the consumption tax. The only way to get congress to stop spending more and favoring their contributors over the general public is to take the control away from them.

 

[ktmexc20]

Quote from maxpi:
The tax system is a huge number of loopholes written for specific businesses and individuals that donate to campaigns, I have looked at it myself that is what it is, after the Reagan reforms and before. When they start complaining how it is too complicated or whatever, they just want to scrap it and write a lot of new loopholes for their current donors. Nothing will change unless the people force it. The flat tax will wind up with a zillion loopholes as well, just when you think they are changing something they quietly do the same thing to you again, it is what they do. It will be a lot harder to write such loopholes in the consumption tax. The only way to get congress to stop spending more and favoring their contributors over the general public is to take the control away from them.

Indeed.

 

[hans37]

Quote from maxpi:

The tax system is a huge number of loopholes written for specific businesses and individuals that donate to campaigns, I have looked at it myself that is what it is, after the Reagan reforms and before. When they start complaining how it is too complicated or whatever, they just want to scrap it and write a lot of new loopholes for their current donors. Nothing will change unless the people force it. The flat tax will wind up with a zillion loopholes as well, just when you think they are changing something they quietly do the same thing to you again, it is what they do. It will be a lot harder to write such loopholes in the consumption tax. The only way to get congress to stop spending more and favoring their contributors over the general public is to take the control away from them.

The problem with a democracy or Democratic Republic is that the voting public can bestow generous largess upon itself at the expense of others. Politicians naturally are inclined to exploit this as a means to both garnering votes and ensuring their reelection.

As long as politicians are willing to pander to those who think they have a right to other people's money is going to be a problem.

One potential solution is to weight ones vote by how much that person contributes in taxes to the government. In that way government will be responsible to those who are supporting it.

No one will lose their right to vote, however their voice would be in direct proportion to their contribution.

I think it manifestly insane the person who pays no income tax at all has the same voting power as one who contributes millions.

I think that would also decrease the power of lobbying groups top

 

[ktmexc20]

Quote from hans37:

Hmm... I'm not to sure about that plan.

Imho, the only way to route out all the BS in America, is by making all political campaign contributions publicly financed. One coffer divided amongst all candidates!!!

Oh, and term limits for the Congressional elite!

 

[libertad]

What´s the matter....do you not like paying for those fat no bid Halliburton-Cheney military contracts etc ???

You know...with the advent of the internet....a true change in the form of government can happen....namely one with visibility...

Why have an antiquated two party system....when you erase the political season altogether...and thus have a country truly run by its citizens...

A consumption based tax collected by the states would basically do away with the Federal Government ...I have won the Lotto type of system....

Each state could increase its own sovereignty and thus have a more hands on and visible governmental system...

Instead of the Senate/Representative system....you would have an internet based voting system on important issues....

Politics in general would be done away with....there would be no parties....just voting on main issues by the public via the internet...

You would have state district heads who are paid in accordance with their responsibilities whose actions are made clearly visible via the internet...hired and fired by the public...

Taxes that are collected would be via consumption taxes on a state by state basis...

Important issues are far too complex to be given to a few priviledged people....

In a democracy...the people supposedly control the government...
The internet offers this possibility...

The US could come closer to becoming a truer democracy than it is...and this platform could handily be adopted by other governments worldwide....

Truer efficiencies would happen as a result....worldwide....

 

[hans37]

Quote from ktmexc20:

Hmm... I'm not to sure about that plan.

Imho, the only way to route out all the BS in America, is by making all political campaign contributions publicly financed. One coffer divided amongst all candidates!!!

Oh, and term limits for the Congressional elite!

I prefer the fair tax, let them (politicians) have what the public is willing to give them through consumption decisions.


My other plan was just to get people thinking how crazy our system truly is.

Privacy issues would prevent the implementation of my proposal.

 

[ktmexc20]

Quote from libertad:

Yeah but the bastards are already putting there paws on internet regulation that enable preferences for limiting net neutrality. I wonder whats next in this category.

Quote from hans37:
...Privacy issues would prevent the implementation of my proposal.

Yup.

 

[swtrader]

there has to be a way to account for savings that was saved under the old tax scheme, or it gets converted to pre-tax income and double taxed

 

[hans37]

Quote from libertad:

What´s the matter....do you not like paying for those fat no bid Halliburton-Cheney military contracts etc ???

You know...with the advent of the internet....a true change in the form of government can happen....namely one with visibility...

Why have an antiquated two party system....when you erase the political season altogether...and thus have a country truly run by its citizens...

A consumption based tax collected by the states would basically do away with the Federal Government ...I have won the Lotto type of system....

Each state could increase its own sovereignty and thus have a more hands on and visible governmental system...

Instead of the Senate/Representative system....you would have an internet based voting system on important issues....

Politics in general would be done away with....there would be no parties....just voting on main issues by the public via the internet...

You would have state district heads who are paid in accordance with their responsibilities whose actions are made clearly visible via the internet...hired and fired by the public...

Taxes that are collected would be via consumption taxes on a state by state basis...

Important issues are far too complex to be given to a few priviledged people....

In a democracy...the people supposedly control the government...
The internet offers this possibility...

The US could come closer to becoming a truer democracy than it is...and this platform could handily be adopted by other governments worldwide....

Truer efficiencies would happen as a result....worldwide....

mob rule by internet eh?