Are you ready for this....?

[WDGann]

Originally posted by Long-Way-To-Go


Okay. How? Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people around here have had their heads bitten off for asking for help.

Okay. What? Many around here say books are almost worthless and that your method should come from inside of you.

Okay. But many would prefer not to do this until they have completed the first 2. However, given that the first two are unlikely to produce much help, a new trader has almost no choice but to skip 1 and 2 and go directly to 3.

I'd like to add a few things, just in case you come telling me, you don't get it.

People getting their heads bitten off asking for help... I've got help from people with trading. Other traders have had mentors in trading, are you actually saying that you can never get help from other traders? Well, you might have done it solely by yourself but I give credit to my trading ability to a lot of people.

Books are worthless... Denying study... So you just put yourself in front of a trade execution software and trade without prior knowledge. Experience is everything? Another words, you get a elementary kid in the middle of the S&P pit and have him trade. OK, almost worthless. Yes, books won't make you profitable but having knowledge is an edge. Yes, it's how you apply the knowledge that is important, still you need the prior knowledge. Whether it be statistics, psychology, or some trader lore, you do need knowledge to lead yourself to what is likely.

I actually don't recommend trading without any plans. So what's your point? We both agree that trading without an idea or a plan is devastating. In order to create a plan you need to have the prior knowledge to do this. There are 2 ways, have some other trader help you and / or study on your own.

From what I read, it seems like you are telling all new traders not to trade at all and consider another career. Can you share how you got to be a profitable trader?

If you're not profitable and devastated with how much little you are getting from the forum, let me ask you something. Have you been to a trading firm? Worked as an assistance for someone? Prop. Firm? Know a group of profitable trader?

I've read people who live away from a condition that can help them trading. To tell you truth, that's an excuse. How many people move to Chicago or New York to become a trader? Quite a few. I know a few that wants to be a trader in Chicago who has a night job because they can't support themselves only with trading. Out of the three I know, 1 has a kid and a wife. Gambling? Ignorance? No, it's his passion.

 

[Carboxyl]

Originally posted by Wannabe MKII
I was going to get a book written by Tony Oz, as they seem to get good reviews on this site. Does anyone recommend a book for a starter?
Chris.

I have the book "Taking Money From Wall Street" by Tony Oz, I thought it was pretty good for beginners, especially the first two or three chapters about risk management. But definitely check out others so you get a better overall understanding. There was another book from the guys whom started Broadway Trading (forgot their names, like mark something) that was pretty decent.

 

[tampa]

Kid, trading ain't a carrier - it's a way of life. And a life long pursuit.


To be successful you must first learn about yourself. Then you must learn how to read other people - the crowd. And finally, you must learn how and why markets react and behave.

There is no book that can teach any of this. But each will contain a snipit. Read everything you can get your hands on. Listen to anyone who will talk to you. But most importantly, think long and hard about what you have read and heard. Understand that there are no secrets to trading. And understand that no one can transfer their success to you - because each of us is different, each of us reacts differently. What works for me, cannot, and will not work for you.

You must put together your own plan, your own method. It is a long and sometimes painful process. So you must not expect to become successful quickly.

You must also be ready to change what you think to be true, because the markets constantly change.

If you were drawn to trading to make money, to get rich, than you will most likely fail. Trading is the greatest intellectual game yet devised by man. You don't do this to make money - you do it to be right. If you are right, than you will make money. It's a mind game, a constant challenge. Approach it as anything else, and you will likely be one of it's casualties.

And above all else, trading is an individual pursuit, and that's why no one can really tell you how it is done. The sad part of all of this for a young person, is that much of what is needed can only come from experience - not so much from the trading pit, but from life itself.

 

[StraightDown]

I copied this post off the net several years ago. I did not write it. I thought it might be interesting to others on this thread.

38 steps to becoming a trader

They are as follows:

1. We accumulate information - buying books, going to seminars and
researching.
2. We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge.
3. We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more knowledge or
information.
4. We accumulate more information.
5. We switch the commodities we are currently following.
6. We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated' knowledge.
7. We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence. Fear
starts setting in.
8. We start to listen to 'outside news' and to other traders.
9. We go back into the market and continue to 'donate'.
10. We switch commodities again.
11. We search for more information.
12. We go back into the market and start to see a little progress.
13. We get 'over-confident' and the market humbles us.
14. We start to understand that trading successfully is going to take more
time and more knowledge than we anticipated.

MOST PEOPLE WILL GIVE UP AT THIS POINT,
AS THEY REALIZE WORK IS INVOLVED.

15. We get serious and start concentrating on learning a 'real' methodology.
16. We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that something
is missing.
17. We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our
methodology.
18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our trading
rules.
19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but
over all we still hesitate when it comes time to execute.
20. We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more proficient
with our rules.
21. We feel we are very close to crossing that threshold of successful
trading.
22. We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we understand
that our success is in us, not the methodology.
23. We continue to trade and become more proficient with our methodology and
our rules.
24. As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rules and our
results are still erratic.
25. We know we are close.
26. We go back and research our rules.
27. We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the market and
trade.
28. Our trading results are getting better, but we are still hesitating in
executing our rules.
29. We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the results
of our trades when we don't follow the rules.
30. We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack of
discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear) and we
begin
to work on knowing ourselves better.
31. We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more about
ourselves.
32. We master our methodology and our trading rules.
33. We begin to consistently make money.
34. We get a little over-confident and the market humbles us.
35. We continue to learn our lessons.
36. We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading becomes
boring, but successful) and our trading account continues to grow as
we
increase our contract size.
37. We are making more money than we ever dreamed possible.
38. We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had always
dreamed of.

Most traders will identify with this list and should be able to place
themselves within these steps. Keep in mind that very few people progress
through these steps in an orderly fashion. Developing your trading skills is
an iterative process. For example, you may reach Step 13., find that
although you were making money, your basic premise for trading was flawed
(you might have been benefiting from the bull market, rather than your own
trading prowess and then have been rudely awakened when the market entered a
bear phase) and you may drop back to Step 4. and start 'climbing' the steps
again. Having the proper mindset, attitude and psychological makeup becomes
increasingly important as you progress through the steps. The focus of the
earlier steps is on external issues, i.e. developing proficiency in the
mechanics of trading while the focus of the latter steps (particularly from
Step 30, on) is on internal issues, i.e. improving ourselves mentally and
psychologically, maturing as traders.

 

[monee]

That post is so accurate it's scary!

monee

 

[dojibear]

Originally posted by Long-Way-To-Go


>>1. Seek help from other traders.
Okay. How? Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people around here have had their heads bitten off for asking for help.
>>2. Study.
Okay. What? Many around here say books are almost worthless and that your method should come from inside of you.
>3. Trade and try it out.
Okay. But many would prefer not to do this until they have completed the first 2. However, given that the first two are unlikely to produce much help, a new trader has almost no choice but to skip 1 and 2 and go directly to 3.

The problem for new traders seeking help/advice from more experience traders is that they would not 'understand' the advice untill they have to go through the 'process' (pain) themself.
I think they should read up books to understant how the stock market work, so they would not have questions such as "the stock is going up, how come I can never buy the shares on my BID ???" (and finally, his bid got filled, and the stock goes down...).
Next step is to start small, 100 share lot to get a feel of trading, experience the feeling of winning/losing, and finally, come to ET and seek opinion from experience trader. That way, the advise given would have much more signification.


Cheers !!!

 

[WDGann]

The posts between my last one and this one are great.

I would just like to add that experienced traders who accept to help new traders should think more too.

I've debated this with Commisso on the other posts along with others about this. Most people here tend to look at a new trader's question from their perspective. Like what dojibear says above. They won't get it. I agree that concentrating on monetary aspect is overall negative. But it is an initial step you have to take.

When we study and seek for something, we first need the edge. Once we have the edge and you're proficient with it, then we need to go into the more deeper aspects of trading. Like not seeking for profits and looking deeper inside you.

I think it's misleading to tell a new trader to look inside them initially before they have the prerequisite of trading which is to have an edge. I just feel, "Find your own style" is misleading to an extent. You need to have the prior tidbits of information to do this, you can't just meditate and suddenly enlighten yourself to a trading style.

I don't know about others though. I just might be too untalented for this business that I never have an enlightenment. My trading comes from knowledge and experience.

 

[calibertrader]

Originally posted by WDGann
The posts between my last one and this one are great.


I think it's misleading to tell a new trader to look inside them initially before they have the prerequisite of trading which is to have an edge. I just feel, "Find your own style" is misleading to an extent. You need to have the prior tidbits of information to do this, you can't just meditate and suddenly enlighten yourself to a trading style.

You are 100%. The only way to find out which style is for you is to try all of them. Then you can finds ways to combine some parts to design a trading system that you are comfortable with.

By trying all of them, I don't mean sit around for several years and lose money. You may have to get proficient at one or two methods, so you can start building capital. Then, with a small portion of that capital, you can start to meddle with other methodologies. Once you find a methodology that works better for you, you can switch the bulk of your capital to trading that methodology. The best part, is if thta methodology goes cold, you can always fall back on the other two, and slowly explore others. Within several years, you'll start to understand how all these methodologies intertwine, to make you an almost everyday consistantly profitable trader. That is why a good prop firm is good. If they teach you several different methodologies as you progress, it could take years off your total learning curve.

 

[Long-Way-To-Go]

WDGann wrote:

>>I've got help from people with trading

Where?

>>From what I read, it seems like you are
>>telling all new traders not to trade at
>>all and consider another career.

Not at all. I'm just saying that this is one of the hardest careers in which to obtain a quality education.

>>Have you been to a trading firm? Worked as
>>an assistance for someone? Prop. Firm? Know
>>a group of profitable trader?

No, no, no, and no. That's the problem. It's not like I can walk into my local university and learn how to trade. And if I understand you correctly, the best way for me to learn is to pack up and move to a location where there is a reputable trading firm. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

>>How many people move to Chicago or New York
>>to become a trader?

I wish I could, but I cannot move.

 

[Long-Way-To-Go]

Carboxyl wrote:

>>There was another book from the guys whom
>>started Broadway Trading (forgot their names,
>>like mark something) that was pretty decent.

Anybody know the name of this book?