You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Are all trading courses scams?
- Thread starter eagerbeaver
- Start date
Sorry to be of the whiners.Quote from Lefty62151:
This is what I am talking about. Adults research and check out references. In every other business, that is how it is done. You ask for references and talk to people who have used the service you are considering.
For the rest, my comment is grow up, quite whining, act like an adult.
One of the courses I looked at a couple of years ago was
rsofhouston. I spoke with the guy on the phone, he told me was profitable and in those days I was too polite to ask for statements. He offered me a list of names, worldwide ; ex-students who I could ring to confirm his prowess. I also found an review by the Chief editor of TASC magazine, lauding his reputation and skill. http://www.traders.com/Reprints/PDF.../RS_HOUSTON.pdf
He even sent me a free video where a long line of adoring students praised him as teacher, trader, and man.
I was about to send in my money ($4000) when I happened to come across a CFTC fraud conviction.
http://www.cftc.gov/enf/00orders/enfrsofhouston.htm]
In his six years of trading he had been a consistent loser, he was an out an out conman. The amazing thing is he is still doing well, even becoming wealthy from his scamming operation.
We all know how it works, once someone has has paid big bucks for a NON-REFUNDABLE item they want to believe it works. And if they complain- well he now knows how to avoid prosecution from CTFC - just put the disclaimer in small print.
In trading vendor land the only reliable indication is certified accountant/tax/broker statements. Those who have a good record will jump at the chance to show them (I've seen them from 3 vendors). The rest....
On the other hand I've also bought courses which give a unconditional money back guarantee, and that is fine, even without statements.
I dont see this as whining. It sounds instead like you did your homework. Good for you.
Edit:
You say you "happened across a CFTC fraud conviction". I hope you will see this as a necessary measure to take to protect yourself in the future. It saved you $4,000.
In my world, if I want to buy service from a vendor, I first check with the Better Business Bureau to see if there are any complaints for that business. Again, this is common sense. I am protecting my interests just as you did.
If you work with a real estate broker, do you just walk into an office and announce you want to buy a house? I don't think so. I check with the state to see if that licensee is in good standing, and I ask for references. I talk to people who have use that agent.
As I have said, people need to stop acting like sheep.
This is common sense.
Edit:
You say you "happened across a CFTC fraud conviction". I hope you will see this as a necessary measure to take to protect yourself in the future. It saved you $4,000.
In my world, if I want to buy service from a vendor, I first check with the Better Business Bureau to see if there are any complaints for that business. Again, this is common sense. I am protecting my interests just as you did.
If you work with a real estate broker, do you just walk into an office and announce you want to buy a house? I don't think so. I check with the state to see if that licensee is in good standing, and I ask for references. I talk to people who have use that agent.
As I have said, people need to stop acting like sheep.
This is common sense.
In trading education followed by application is the path to becoming a better trader. I have just attended a D&P show from Star Trader. They are currently offering a three day educational traing class in Atlanta for later this month for $99.00...Yes I am going.
If you wish to learn Fibonacci and how to use it for spotting support and resistance zones try the FREE online (Hotcom) live training with Bernard Mitchell from www.fearandgreed.com. The traing is on Thursdays. This evenings session will be from 8 to 9 PM PST. He is giving away a copy of his manual Fibonacci tool to all who attend tonite....Yes I will attend also not for the tool as I already have it, but for the additional education.
Hope this helps you to become a better trader!
If you wish to learn Fibonacci and how to use it for spotting support and resistance zones try the FREE online (Hotcom) live training with Bernard Mitchell from www.fearandgreed.com. The traing is on Thursdays. This evenings session will be from 8 to 9 PM PST. He is giving away a copy of his manual Fibonacci tool to all who attend tonite....Yes I will attend also not for the tool as I already have it, but for the additional education.
Hope this helps you to become a better trader!
Quote from Lefty62151:
Admittedly it is hard to find them, and the product they offer may not have the polish that you see in some offerings, but IMHO, thats "where the gold is hidden".
There may be trace amounts of gold powder out there, but would not time be better spent "mining your own diamonds?" I am of the view that most intelligent, hard-working and dedicated people would sooner find a method on their own that works for them than they could find a legitimate vendor who would spoon feed it to them, either in whole or in trace elements. Besides, most vendors are just out to get stupid money.
Quote from Lefty62151:
Finally, I do not agree with the now fashionable practice of asking a vendor or mentor to provide access to financial (trading) records. I believe that people are entitled to privacy with respect to their financial affairs. There are other ways to verify a persons expertise, including the old fashioned way: get references. In my opinion, nothing beats talking to a former student or former client and asking them what their experience was like.
Caveat emptor, especially in this area. References alone are next to meaningless. References are only as good as your familiarity with the validity of its source. Vendors can and do have shills, as a prior poster indicated. If you are looking for human decency, you will sooner find it elsewhere. Audited financial statements of aggregated trading performance over a reasonable period of time would be nice in that it does not disclose the actual broker statements, but provides a confirmation by a CPA with errors and omissions insurance. If you are selling yourself, don't expect the right to total privacy.
Quote from Lefty62151:
Also, if you are going to invest in training, it makes sense to try to develop a relationship with the person offering the training. This takes time, but in the end you will receive better training because you have made a human connection with the person you are working with.
That sounds good in theory, and I mean that sincerely. However, you will likely have a hard time finding what you are looking for. The fact is that the majority of vendors are not interested in your time and your relationship. They are interested in your money. Sad? Yes. True? Absolutely. If you disagree, then perhaps you should prove me wrong by seeking out such a vendor/trainer and reporting your progress to us. I wish you luck. But let me end this post as I have started it. Most people would be better served by doing their own homework, all of it. That is where the gold is hidden.
Well those are my standards. If a vendor wants my money, they will need to provide references, and I will need to check them out.
So far, I have had no problem. I believe that is because I have learned to think for myself.
Edit:
By the way, I used to teach at the University of California. I enjoy working with folks and seeing them overcome obstacles. I have trained everyone in my office. It is precisely because of this attitude ("I have to see your records, nothing else will do") that I would never seriously consider that line of work. Its really too bad. I am the kind of person who would be able to add value, but not under a microscope. Ironically that is why folks post here that they want to find a mentor and no one responds except the con artists.
Lefty.
So far, I have had no problem. I believe that is because I have learned to think for myself.
Edit:
By the way, I used to teach at the University of California. I enjoy working with folks and seeing them overcome obstacles. I have trained everyone in my office. It is precisely because of this attitude ("I have to see your records, nothing else will do") that I would never seriously consider that line of work. Its really too bad. I am the kind of person who would be able to add value, but not under a microscope. Ironically that is why folks post here that they want to find a mentor and no one responds except the con artists.
Lefty.
Quote from Samson77:
...I thought I would just post some books that I found to be the best for a SOLID foundation/education in trading.
Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets - John Murphy
Trading to win - Ari Keiv
Market Wizard - Schwagar
Rem of a stock operator - Lefever
Read these cover to cover twice they will give you a good start and they may be enough for some of you if you have natural talent.
I have read the books you refer to. I will go along with 3 of your selections, but I disagree with you about Ari Kiev's Trading To Win. That book is perhaps the worst book of its kind. Kindly read the first review on Amazon by a reviewer named Justice Litle "trader75" . The review is titled "the emperor has no clothes." I could not have said it better myself. The last paragraph is the most important.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-1667102-6317505?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Quote from kowboy:
It's not really that difficult or expensive to provide an unaudited statement of trading account results. Yet almost all vendors want you to spend your money without providing performance results. I don't think their personal privacy is the isuue here.
So is that too much to ask when vendors are touting their goods?
Very few of these vendors look credible to me.
I agree that if someone stakes their professional credibility as a trainer on claims of having been a great trader themselves, they should be more than happy to offer evidence. If someone told you to take his or her writing class because that person is a great author, they certainly should refer you to a book he/she wrote.
Quote from Thunderdog:
I have read the books you refer to. I will go along with 3 of your selections, but I disagree with you about Ari Kiev's Trading To Win.
Personally I don't really give much acknowledgement to the psychology behind trading anyway.
It's my belief that a GOOD method will take care of this issue all by itself.
So scratch that one if you like but it's nice to at least understand what others may be going through as an additional edge to support your trade.
Quote from Samson77:
Personally I don't really give much acknowledgement to the psychology behind trading anyway.
It's my belief that a GOOD method will take care of this issue all by itself.
So scratch that one if you like but it's nice to at least understand what others may be going through as an additional edge to support your trade.
I agree with you about the method being the thing, but I still think that the psychological element should not be downplayed. One interesting book in this regard is Zen and the Art of Poker. Let me say that I know nothing about either Zen or poker, and that I have no intention of familiarizing myself with either subject any time soon. However, the book has some very decent application as it relates to the psychology of trading. The fact that the book is not specifically about trading is actually a plus. The same Amazon reviewer hit the nail on the head in his review of this book. No, I am not that reviewer. However, I have read most of the trading books he has reviewed (as well as several others that he has not reviewed but probably read), and I find that his analysis is often dead on.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member...-6317505?_encoding=UTF8&display=public&page=2