ARCA or INET - who is more liquid?

Don Bright · Mar 3, 2004

Quote from MACD_addy:

Don,

Can you explain this in a little more depth. Are you referring to OTC or Listed quotes. I am not exactly clear on what it is that you are stating here.

Thanks.

MACD

While on the phone with Mr. Putnam, we concluded that "some" of the ARCA quotes were MM quotes that are not immediate execution type orders. As I said, not a big deal, but you should be aware that when you click on one, it may disappear without completion.

Don

stock777 · Mar 3, 2004

Well, I've never run into that, but if it's true, the SEC needs to be aware of it , not me. Posting quotes that are not executable is false advertising and misleads the market. We know quotes are pulled all day in response to market conditions, but a resting quote thats pulled because someone had the gall to access it, is , imho, criminal.

Not a big deal indeed. Still have some doubt as to whether this is even the case, but who am I to question Mr Putnam. And how can his system permit posting as an ecn, when its really not an ecn quote?

Jonnytrade344 · Mar 3, 2004

Don, are you saying that a mm might post a bid or offer and that I, as a trader, can't hit that even if I use supermontage? I have never had this happen to me and I just can't conceive this.

MACD_addy · Mar 3, 2004

Quote from Don Bright:

While on the phone with Mr. Putnam, we concluded that "some" of the ARCA quotes were MM quotes that are not immediate execution type orders. As I said, not a big deal, but you should be aware that when you click on one, it may disappear without completion.

Don

Ok now I am really confused! Again are you referring to trading Nasdaq or NYSE? If you are referring to Nasdaq than I would like to know exactly how this works because as I understand the rules this would be considered "backing away" and is violation of NASD trading rules. I realize that a market maker can use ARCA like any other participant and is free to cancel his bid as it is being hit. Unlike the situation where he is at the inside using his MPID showing size and starts getting hit and then pulls his order, a clear case of "backing away" . However, I am understanding you to say that M.M.'s are posting through ARCA (where some people can see him as a M.M. and not part of ARCA but still adding size to the ARCA Bid/Offer) and some how have a way of delaying direct execution against their quote and then pulling it at will.

Am I understanding this correctly? If so I think ARCA and Putnam "got some 'splainin to do" !!!!

MACD

qazmax · Mar 4, 2004

With all due respect....
There is no cancelling part of the order before it is matched electronically. That holds true for SuperMontage and ARCA.

There is no such thing as a fake post on ARCA. The market maker who is showing a bid for say 500 shares may have a 100,000 shares behind (not on "reserve"). If you send an order to sell 100,000 and are the first order to arrive (before the market maker cancels or modifies) - you will receive that 500 shares. If the 100,000 is on the reserve at that price you will get the 100,000.

ARCA CEO often misspeaks.... could just be another occassion.

Remember these trades go off in miliseconds.

Jonnytrade344 · Mar 4, 2004

Obviously, it is Don who seems to have misspoken or he would have responded by now. Let's face it, what he said makes no sense whatsoever and I would like to hear him say that.

RAMOUTAR · Mar 4, 2004

Quote from Don Bright:

One thing to remember when trading ARCA...the "give up" you see on the screen (ARCA, of course)...shows up on most traders screens the same whether it is a liquid ECN order, or a bid/offer from one of their market makers. As most of you are aware, the MM's bids/offers are not "pure" Electronic execution...in other words, you may click them and they go away...not a big concern, since this the way the OTC MM system works.

I was on the phone last year with Jerry Putnam, the big boss at ARCA, discussing this quoting method...and he acknowledges the MM's as well as the ECN quotes may appear the same on many screens...

You should test for yourself....as always, understand the system, play well.

Don

Bravo! On the money Don.

MACD_addy · Mar 6, 2004

Quote from qazmax:

With all due respect....
There is no canceling part of the order before it is matched electronically. That holds true for SuperMontage and ARCA.

There is no such thing as a fake post on ARCA. The market maker who is showing a bid for say 500 shares may have a 100,000 shares behind (not on "reserve"). If you send an order to sell 100,000 and are the first order to arrive (before the market maker cancels or modifies) - you will receive that 500 shares. If the 100,000 is on the reserve at that price you will get the 100,000.

ARCA CEO often misspeaks.... could just be another occasion.

Remember these trades go off in miliseconds.

Qaz,

I understand what you are saying here and that is exactly why I am questioning Don's statements. It seems to me that he is saying that somehow M.M.'s can use ARCA and overcome exactly what SuperMontage is supposed to be about, direct electronic execution for up to 1 million shares. I am familiar with reserves, hiddens, etc. but what Don is referring to sounds different. Then RAMOUTER says bravo, which makes it sound like there is some kind of conspiracy being unearthed here.

I see all kinds of weird shit happen on my level II all day that I have no explanations for but I just except most things as part of the game we play. My reasoning for questioning this thing is to find out whether or not I am missing pieces of the puzzle which may help me to better understand the things I see.

P.S. I regularly will cancel part of my bid/offer as it is getting hit. I no that most of the time when my cancels work it is because I am not getting hit for my full post but there are times that I am sure that it is just slow filling on the other side and I actually cancel out of part of an order in progress.

MACD

stock777 · Mar 8, 2004

Speaking of strange goings on, whats with all these really bad prints in the AM on ARCA, and other Ecns? Stocks trading for 1 cent, 1000 dollars, almost every day. Are there that many drunks out there so early in the day?

sprstpd · Mar 8, 2004

Quote from stock777:

Speaking of strange goings on, whats with all these really bad prints in the AM on ARCA, and other Ecns? Stocks trading for 1 cent, 1000 dollars, almost every day. Are there that many drunks out there so early in the day?

Yes - it is amazing how many typos are produced.