Anyone else self-sabotage?

[themickey]

Anyone else self-sabotage?
I know what I'm doing and I understand the game. And it takes a lot of discipline and mental strength. And then all of a sudden, it's like I get a voice inside my head that makes me do something hastily and completely stupid. WTF. Anyone else battle something like this?

Let me ramble and rant for a minute.....
All my life, since being a little kid, I've sat on the sidelines and for some reason I like to observe peoples behaviour.
One thing I've noticed is frequently there are some who can't sit still for 5 seconds, they dart their head around, move their bodies, twitch and always looking for something to do.
They have lots of physical energy.

Possibly your self sabotage is because you can't sit still, you have a restless spirit.

Just a thought.

 

[Aisone]

You need context.

*I have no idea why I feel this might fit for you. *shrugs**

I have no idea why either but loved it.

 

[Aisone]

If I read your responses, I think you missed some basic stuff of being a successful trader.
1) What is your objective of your tradingplan? For example, mine is catching the high or low of the day and riding it to the close, hoping for a large range day.
2) What rules do you need to accomplish this? For example: I need to sit on my hands when I'm in a trade and must be willing to give up profits, because the market can turn mid day and go from a nice profit to a loss, because of my goal of catching the large range day's.

by writing it out, thinking clearly beforehand, you will get more confident in what you are trying to accomplish with your trading. I have the feeling now, that you are trying to figure out what you want to do while you are trading.

Thanks for the thoughts and tips, but it's more about sudden inexplicable lapses. Maybe self-sabotage is in me 100% of the time but lately I've only been able to repress it 99% of the time.

 

[Aisone]

Let me ramble and rant for a minute.....
All my life, since being a little kid, I've sat on the sidelines and for some reason I like to observe peoples behaviour.
One thing I've noticed is frequently there are some who can't sit still for 5 seconds, they dart their head around, move their bodies, twitch and always looking for something to do.
They have lots of physical energy.

Possibly your self sabotage is because you can't sit still, you have a restless spirit.

Just a thought.

It's very possible I have a restless spirit, relatively at least. Doing this for me takes a lot of constant concentration on a lot of things and sometimes I just have to take the train off the tracks, even though I can't always step away and do it.

 

[Leob]

I found your question interesting, few years ago felt the same way number of times.
Here what IA had to say about it...

Self-sabotage refers to behaviors or thought patterns that hold you back from achieving your goals or living up to your full potential. There can be various reasons why people engage in self-sabotaging behaviors. Some common reasons include:

1. **Fear of Failure:** People may self-sabotage because they fear failing at something they care about. By sabotaging themselves, they can avoid the risk of failure and the associated feelings of disappointment, shame, or inadequacy.

2. **Low Self-Esteem:** Individuals with low self-esteem may engage in self-sabotage as a way to confirm their negative beliefs about themselves. They may not feel deserving of success or happiness, so they unconsciously undermine their efforts to prevent positive outcomes.

3. **Comfort Zone:** Stepping outside of one's comfort zone can be intimidating, even if it means pursuing something desirable. Self-sabotage can be a way to stay within familiar territory and avoid the discomfort that comes with change or growth.

4. **Lack of Self-Confidence:** People who lack confidence in their abilities may sabotage themselves to avoid situations where they feel exposed or vulnerable. This can serve as a defense mechanism to protect themselves from potential criticism or judgment.

5. **Perfectionism:** Striving for perfection can lead to self-sabotage if the individual believes they must meet impossibly high standards. This can create a cycle of procrastination or avoidance, as they fear not being able to achieve perfection.

6. **Past Trauma:** Previous experiences of failure, rejection, or trauma can influence self-sabotaging behavior. Unresolved emotional wounds may lead individuals to engage in self-destructive patterns as a way to cope with their pain or protect themselves from further harm.

7. **Lack of Self-Awareness:** Some people may not be fully aware of their self-sabotaging behaviors or the underlying reasons for them. Without introspection and self-reflection, they may continue to undermine their own success without understanding why.

It's important to recognize when you are engaging in self-sabotage and to address the underlying issues causing these behaviors. Seeking support from a therapist, counselor, or coach can help you develop strategies to overcome self-sabotage and work towards achieving your goals.

 

[Aisone]

Every trader makes mistakes, but if your keep on repeating the same mistake(s) over and over, then forcing discipline onto yourself will be like trying to keep air balloon submerged under water. (in such cases discipline becomes just a temporary band-aid, and you need to deal with the underlying psychological cause).

I have different viewpoint from others on self-sabotage (and on lack of trading discipline), I believe that it is caused by cognitive dissonance. (Google “cognitive dissonance” for more info)

There is no quick fix, but it starts with developing awareness, and understanding that you don’t trade the markets but rather your beliefs about the markets.

Self-sabotaging (sub-conscious) beliefs have positive intentions in spite of the harmful consequences. However, because self-sabotage is subconsciously driven, it can be difficult to pinpoint the actual culprit.

That’s why forced discipline, positive self-talk, trading plans, etc, often do not work (long-term) for most traders. i.e., they know what to do, they do it for a while, and then the self-sabotage creeps in again because some of their subconscious beliefs / values are not in total congruence with each other.

Unfortunately, there are not many good trading books on this subject, as most of them regurgitate the same discipline stuff over and over, instead of helping traders to realise that lack of discipline is a symptom, and not the underlying cause.

For some lucky traders, trading discipline will become a second nature once they get burned few times. However, such traders are usually psychologically sound to start off with. The rest of people either need to deal with their underlying psychological issues or they don't make it as professionals.

I think this is a great explanation, excellent post, thank you. Your break down should be a part of the trading books, including in The Disciplined Trader, but can be very relevant for people in all walks of life.

 

[Aisone]

I found your question interesting, few years ago felt the same way number of times.
Here what IA had to say about it...

Self-sabotage refers to behaviors or thought patterns that hold you back from achieving your goals or living up to your full potential. There can be various reasons why people engage in self-sabotaging behaviors. Some common reasons include:

1. **Fear of Failure:** People may self-sabotage because they fear failing at something they care about. By sabotaging themselves, they can avoid the risk of failure and the associated feelings of disappointment, shame, or inadequacy.

2. **Low Self-Esteem:** Individuals with low self-esteem may engage in self-sabotage as a way to confirm their negative beliefs about themselves. They may not feel deserving of success or happiness, so they unconsciously undermine their efforts to prevent positive outcomes.

3. **Comfort Zone:** Stepping outside of one's comfort zone can be intimidating, even if it means pursuing something desirable. Self-sabotage can be a way to stay within familiar territory and avoid the discomfort that comes with change or growth.

4. **Lack of Self-Confidence:** People who lack confidence in their abilities may sabotage themselves to avoid situations where they feel exposed or vulnerable. This can serve as a defense mechanism to protect themselves from potential criticism or judgment.

5. **Perfectionism:** Striving for perfection can lead to self-sabotage if the individual believes they must meet impossibly high standards. This can create a cycle of procrastination or avoidance, as they fear not being able to achieve perfection.

6. **Past Trauma:** Previous experiences of failure, rejection, or trauma can influence self-sabotaging behavior. Unresolved emotional wounds may lead individuals to engage in self-destructive patterns as a way to cope with their pain or protect themselves from further harm.

7. **Lack of Self-Awareness:** Some people may not be fully aware of their self-sabotaging behaviors or the underlying reasons for them. Without introspection and self-reflection, they may continue to undermine their own success without understanding why.

Nice post, thanks, a really good window to evaluate things from.

 

[jnbadger]

Great subject. Great responses.

I'm in my 28th year of stock trading, but I've recently had to deal with this since I started trading the NQs, which was originally based on my stock trading entry and exit tactics. Now it is tightly correlated with my stock trading strategy, but the tactics needed some serious adjustments. So far it's working well since I realized I need to combine my micro perspective for entries with a macro perspective for exits. (Macro, for me anyway, is what the market might do in the next half hour or so. Not the next week or month).

I actually talked to a counselor about the self sabotage thing, and she reminded me that self sabotage is usually caused by past trauma. (beginner66 had a great response) She also reminded me that she and I had already worked through that, and self sabotage doesn't make sense since stock trading has worked well for so long.

Full disclosure: (And this is the first time I have mentioned this publicly) She is a substance abuse counselor I've worked with for a couple of years, and now that I'm finally 4 1/2 months sober, everything she says is taken very seriously. We've obviously talked about many personal issues, but she knows trading is a major part of my life, so it's slowly been integrated into our conversations.

She asked the inevitable question of "Why do you think you're successful at stock trading?". I instantly responded with "The stocks I'm trading are up or down at least 2% on the day, trading highly unusual volume, and aren't correlated with what the market is doing that day. And it's fairly easy, after so many years of experience, to back test and find opportunities with my scanner to exploit inefficiencies for mean reversion trades." She had no idea what that meant, but she was simply having me verbally re-enforce my confidence and trust in my own process. And then she said "So you put in the work necessary to be successful"' And I responded with "Yes, and I'm so systematic with my entries and exits, it got to the point where my alcohol abuse only got in the way a little bit".

BOOM! That's when the light turned on in my head. I was just winging it with my NQ trading, even in sobriety. I needed to become equally systematic in my entries, and adjust my system for exits so I hold winners much longer.

I've been rambling on a bit, but the bottom line is this: Before I enter a trade, I ask myself if I'm going to feel like an idiot if it's a loser. So far this week, I've been able to tell my self "That was a good trade" after every loss. As far as winners go, I've only had one trade this week where I've been able to say it was a good exit. I'm up for the week and the month, but I should be doing much better. I'm still trading stocks as much as ever, but I'll always be a rapid fire trader when it comes to entries and exits in stocks. So it's still a hell of an adjustment to adapt to my new exit tactics in the NQs. There have been quite a few times this month when I've told myself "that was a stupid exit", even when it was at a better level than where my system would've told me to get out.

Self sabotage is an easy thing to assume about yourself, mainly because people are so much aware of the idea in recent decades. If you've put in the work, which you obviously have, you just need to make some minor, but possibly difficult, adjustments.

You got this.

JNB

 

[Aisone]

Great subject. Great responses.

I'm in my 28th year of stock trading, but I've recently had to deal with this since I started trading the NQs, which was originally based on my stock trading entry and exit tactics. Now it is tightly correlated with my stock trading strategy, but the tactics needed some serious adjustments. So far it's working well since I realized I need to combine my micro perspective for entries with a macro perspective for exits. (Macro, for me anyway, is what the market might do in the next half hour or so. Not the next week or month).

I actually talked to a counselor about the self sabotage thing, and she reminded me that self sabotage is usually caused by past trauma. (beginner66 had a great response) She also reminded me that she and I had already worked through that, and self sabotage doesn't make sense since stock trading has worked well for so long.

Full disclosure: (And this is the first time I have mentioned this publicly) She is a substance abuse counselor I've worked with for a couple of years, and now that I'm finally 4 1/2 months sober, everything she says is taken very seriously. We've obviously talked about many personal issues, but she knows trading is a major part of my life, so it's slowly been integrated into our conversations.

She asked the inevitable question of "Why do you think you're successful at stock trading?". I instantly responded with "The stocks I'm trading are up or down at least 2% on the day, trading highly unusual volume, and aren't correlated with what the market is doing that day. And it's fairly easy, after so many years of experience, to back test and find opportunities with my scanner to exploit inefficiencies for mean reversion trades." She had no idea what that meant, but she was simply having me verbally re-enforce my confidence and trust in my own process. And then she said "So you put in the work necessary to be successful"' And I responded with "Yes, and I'm so systematic with my entries and exits, it got to the point where my alcohol abuse only got in the way a little bit".

BOOM! That's when the light turned on in my head. I was just winging it with my NQ trading, even in sobriety. I needed to become equally systematic in my entries, and adjust my system for exits so I hold winners much longer.

I've been rambling on a bit, but the bottom line is this: Before I enter a trade, I ask myself if I'm going to feel like an idiot if it's a loser. So far this week, I've been able to tell my self "That was a good trade" after every loss. As far as winners go, I've only had one trade this week where I've been able to say it was a good exit. I'm up for the week and the month, but I should be doing much better. I'm still trading stocks as much as ever, but I'll always be a rapid fire trader when it comes to entries and exits in stocks. So it's still a hell of an adjustment to adapt to my new exit tactics in the NQs. There have been quite a few times this month when I've told myself "that was a stupid exit", even when it was at a better level than where my system would've told me to get out.

Self sabotage is an easy thing to assume about yourself, mainly because people are so much aware of the idea in recent decades. If you've put in the work, which you obviously have, you just need to make some minor, but possibly difficult, adjustments.

You got this.

JNB

Thank you, bro, I appreciate it and for sharing. It's great to hear the personal track that you're on. You got this as well! and I wish you nothing but the best. I used to trade only volatile stocks as well then went to NQ and ES, and it for sure is different. I have plenty of thoughts about stocks vs. indexes but don't want to get off topic, but I think becoming more systematic is a great idea. And I love your questions you ask yourself, very solid and affirming.

 

[murray t turtle]

I know what I'm doing and I understand the game. And it takes a lot of discipline and mental strength.
And then all of a sudden, it's like I get a voice inside my head that makes me do something hastily and completely stupid. WTF. Anyone else battle something like this?

%%
SURE, i make mistakes sometimes\when they split SPXU 1to5, trades different= lots less liquid LOL. SCHW sent me some mail on that LOL also.
BY the way '' that voice that makes you do something''= not correct, you chose to do that. Funny ,but Flip wilson ''the devil mage me do that'' no, he chose to do that.
LOOKS like SPy + TQQQare putting a 1st quarter bottom in;
cut back on size if you dont like your P+L, works well.
IF you find some copper, pick it up also.
M Masters, Marlin Fund like$ to write things + plans on business cards; i also prefer REcycle business+ enVelopes+ notebook