Anybody making any real $$$???

hi traders!

i'm back. Well, I don't think I meant in my first and original post for people to come out and say their actual "numbers" or anything. But maybe some general stats they heard or whatever.

Anyhow, i'm over with these numbers thing. But here's what I think:

I think many people(not everyone but most) CAN make OK money in this prop trading space given enough time and focus. I mean if you are OK with earning next to nothing for a while before you get better then maybe it's OK...

I guess for me it's an opportunity cost tradeoff that I'm still struggling to grapple with. Is it worth it to try to beat this intraday game for another yr or so while i might easily get other steady income opportunities but not as fun or have the same freedom?

Oh well.

we'll all sort these thigns out..

trader99
 
Here's what I've reached in terms of conclusion due to soul-searching.

Prop trading isn't for everyone. Trading in general isn't for everyone. Investing isn't for everyone. Speculation isn't for everyone.

In fact, the market isn't for everyone including professionals not just retail or daytraders.

Having come from the institutional side and now doing prop trading, I've come to realize that if you are going to participate in the market in any way and shape(short-term trading or swing or long-term investing), things are NOT(!!!) going to be easy. No matter how good you are. Even Warren Buffet gave himself a D in 1999/2000 when his portfolio totally lagged the market. And the average mutual fund managers normally lose in the tens of millions if not billiosn collectively year in and year out. Though in
the raging bull market of the 90s, they made a lot of dumb money easily. Now, in the first tough years come, most of them are getting creamed! Just like daytraders are getting creamed. BIG FREAKIN DEAL! It doesn't matter who you are or how much $$ you are trading/managing! You will LOSE $$ if you are not right about the market. Plain & simple. That's the deep truth I've arrived. How come no one out there is outraged by large institutional losses? But when a few small-time retail daytrades lose their pathetic life savings everyone says that daytrading is evil or bad?

I don't get it.

something to think about huh?

But now still comes the finally conclusion to rather stick with this thing in light of monetary rewards... I think it's a personal thing. Sure, a lot of ppl lost more daytrading, because they weren't prepared. And going the institutional route is probably the best way to make a secure 6figure salary albeit risk of unemployment abound.

so, but if you love to trade and freedom that it brings then you have to work at it until you become sufficiently good. whether that is now or later when one is more secure(via normal institutional job) is a personal thing...

trader99
 
Originally posted by Don Bright


Trading firms are just that "trading" firms, and it doesn't really make sense for most long term investors to bother with getting involved at this level. To "buy and hold" something for weeks or months is not how to make money trading...that is (hopefully) just "passive" income, Return on Investment ....

The risk comes into play when a stock opens up or down 10 or 20 points in the morning...and that can be devastating...and one reason why we advise our "longer term" traders to cross the "zero" point every few days or so....if you're wrong, get out, get back in when the stock shows signs of life.
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Agreed Don.

Leavings lots of shares naked long or short for days at a time is just too risky, and it's a risk that I think most people underestimate. They sit and think, "well, the stock normally trades between $14 and $17 per share, and I'm long at $14.50, so I'll probably be fine", but completely discount the possibility that there could be bad sector news or on that stock, and it opens at $11.
 
Why the insistance on these prop firm owners showing how well their traders are doing? That has nothing to do with the value of the prop firm. Not to mention the fact most traders at these firms are probably, not blowing up - but churning, and prop firm owners managers are not going to advertise (admit) this fact anyway.

Just as well for the prop firm, who gets paid - NOT on if their traders make money, but that their traders trade.
 
prop traders don't do well because they are taught high volume trading techniques at the seminars.

unfortunately, the market spanks all who try to trade volume
 
It's really funny that those who obviously know little about the market start to state information as fact. The "facts" are, that the best traders in the world make a few pennies per share, period! And you have to trade a certain volume to make money, period.

Now, to put to rest the idea that we like traders to do big size so the firm makes money....ALL shares in excess of 2500 per trade are absolutely free to the traders (no money for firm, period!)....now, you have some facts that you can use....we only care about the traders making money and staying with the firm. Small share traders are simply not going to do well in the long run. Free trading is certainly helpful.

It's also cute how a couple of you post such nonsense. How could a firm do well if their traders were not successful? What kind of business could survive if their business model was aimed at "losers"..? This just makes no sense. The better firm's work really hard at keeping real traders, through education and cost cutting whenever possible. Anyway, enough said...



Don
 
Originally posted by Don Bright
The "facts" are, that the best traders in the world make a few pennies per share, period!
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This is absolutely not true. In fact it is 100% absolutely wrong.

The "best traders in the world" are not daytraders.

Why? Because the shorter your time frame, the faster you run into size limitations. If you are a daytrader, there is a defined size cap on your activity that cannot be exceeded without seeing performance deterioriation due to the size of your orders.

This is invariably why 99 times out of 100, top traders are more interested in lower percentage return on larger amounts of capital, because they resent the size cap associated w/ super short term plays.


200% return on 500K w/ high leverage / high commish / high stress intensity strategies:

$1 million.

25% return on $50 million w/ lower risk / lower commish / lower stress intensity strategies:

$12.5 million.


No brainer.
 
Originally posted by darkhorse



This is absolutely not true. In fact it is 100% absolutely wrong.

The "best traders in the world" are not daytraders.

Why? Because the shorter your time frame, the faster you run into size limitations. If you are a daytrader, there is a defined size cap on your activity that cannot be exceeded without seeing performance deterioriation due to the size of your orders.

This is invariably why 99 times out of 100, top traders are more interested in lower percentage return on larger amounts of capital, because they resent the size cap associated w/ super short term plays.


200% return on 500K w/ high leverage / high commish / high stress intensity strategies:

$1 million.

25% return on $50 million w/ lower risk / lower commish / lower stress intensity strategies:

$12.5 million.


No brainer.
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I would tend to agree. But I think different people have different time horizon. Daytraders horizon is only within the day and most don't even hold that long(probably anywhere from 30sec-a few hours at most). But if they are good at it then they are good at it right? It doesn't matter.

However, if you define "best" by making the most amount of $$, then daytraders can't obviously be in that category because of volume limitations. I always wonder what's the upper limit on the amount of $ you can trhow around reasonably during the day? $20M?? I don't know. If you do program trading via baskets of s&p500 stocks vs the futures in real-time, I think you can move probably easily $10M-$20M. But for the individual daytraders click or clackign away at the keyboard, can't possibly watch or have the nerve to throw around $20M positions.

Because look at large institutional funds who manages billions, they CAN'T daytrade by definition because they can't move that kind of $$ around during the day and has to hold longer term.

So, would rather make 500% return on a $100K account or a 20%(very decent large fund return) on a $40Billion fund?

But the daytrader gets to keep close to 100% of his gains! So, I think that's pretty nice for the individual. And even the best money managers/hedge fund guys gets only 1% of asset plus 20% of gains. but then 1% of a few hundred million or a billion plus 20% of gains is quite a few pretty pennies. hehe.

but in the end, i think it's hard to compare. people should be happy with whatever time horizon fits them. don't compare. just be happy. a true Zen state of existence...

trader99
 
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