Anybody else supporting Ron Paul for President '08?

Quote from traderdragon2:

Its not murder if done early enough.
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That's just one of the many ethical problems with the pro-choice argument. There is no good way any longer to define "early enough". With improved medical technology, fetuses are viable at an increasily early age with each passing year. So viability and all the other worn out arguments just do not hold up any more.

Again, this is the beauty of Paul's argument: he wants the States to decide this and not some bureaucrat.

In spite of your claims to the contrary, you're hijacking the thread and avoiding the issue that really pertains to the Ron Paul debate: do the Feds have the right to force the States to decide one way or the other on complex moral issues?

I say that the less Fed involvment in the States' affairs the better and that that was the general intention of the Constitution.
 
Quote from stock_trad3r:

Ron paul will cause the markets to tank if he gets elected
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I would like to know who has stock_trad3r's endorsement for president.
 
Quote from traderdragon2:

Ahhh, the intellectually inept crawl out of the woodwork as expected.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've been around plenty of people who have had abortions and are far better for it. Of course when your mind is closed, it's impossible to see the benefits of the other side.

Let me guess, you are irrationally religious too. Right? RIGHT? Thought so.
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Please explain and list the benefits of abortion, I'm curious to hear them.
 
Quote from Wallet:

Please explain and list the benefits of abortion, I'm curious to hear them.
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Are you really this dense or playing dumb?

Psssst, there is this awesome new technology called Google where you can find articles like this
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ne...sues/abortion-access/health-benefits-6131.htm

Just go to www.google.com and type in "benefits of abortion". Fucking amazing, really. :p

Now lets get back to Ron Paul instead of arguing something your mind is 100% closed on.
 
Well let me put this to bed for it’s not the fact that I have a closed mind, but more the fact that my wife volunteers her time each week at a local (pro-life) anti-abortion / adoption agency that has support groups for post-abortion women. I often offer my ear as an debriefing session for my wife as she unwinds for the sessions. And while I am not afforded names (confidentiality reasons) at times it is difficult emotionally for her to work with these women, most of which suffer from deep guilt afterwards.

You can sterilize it by giving it medical names and mask it in medicinal rationality but the fact remains that the vast majority of abortions are preformed for birth control reasons. And the statistics that are noted by most medical references for the safety of procedures are skewed as they do not take into account complications that arise later.

Plants are plants, animals are animals, and human life is human, at it’s inception. The better our measuring devices get the more we see at the earliest stages of development that it’s a baby.

Fwiw,

A closed mind.


http://www.abortionfacts.com/movies/movies_ours.asp
http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_21.asp
 
Shoe, let me start out by stating (again) that I'm pro-choice. However, I agree with you that it is a 'states rights' issue IMO.

Now, for your comments:

Shoe:
>That's just one of the many ethical problems with the
>pro-choice argument. There is no good way any
>longer to define "early enough". With improved
>medical technology, fetuses are viable at an increasily
>early age with each passing year.

The above argument is absolutely devoid of logic -- there is now and always has been a good way to define "early enough". It's called "viability". Has viability been a moving target through the ages? -- yes, but so what ... the "early enough" line just moves with it.

Now, if I were King, in my country I would add a nice safety cushion to the viability point and currently would say no abortions after the first trimester.

>So viability and all the other worn out arguments
>just do not hold up any more.

That's so much crap Shoe. It doesn't matter how far back you go, for you there NEVER would have been any arguments that held up. Therefore, for you to say that they don't hold up "anymore" is transparently disengenuous.

Now, for the record, I have no problem whatsoever with your anti-abortion stand (if it doesn't hold any hypocritical crannies) and respect your right to it. Just don't go claiming that an argument you never would have accepted ANYTIME is now 'no longer valid'.

JB
 
Wallet:
>Obviously you have never spent any time with those
>that have had abortions and suffer the permanent
>psychological scars of doubt and regret that are
>inflicted upon one’s life afterwards.

You can stop with the self righteous position that your crowd cares about "psychological scars of doubt and regret". The anti-abortion crowd pushes adoption as an alternative and those same "psychological scars of doubt and regret" haunt the women who have taken that option.

Birth control, education, jobs, sex education, elimination of poverty and a less puritanical and less marketed/sensational view of sex in this country is the answer -- no scars there.

Though I disagree with it, I have no disrespect for a consistent "it's murder" position on abortion -- so argue from merit, not some tangential crap that effects all women differently.

JB
 
Wallet:
>Please explain and list the benefits of abortion, I'm
>curious to hear them.

1: Well, it's safer than childbirth for one -- by something like 10x

2: Excellent economic benefit - it saves parents from ~125,000 to 250,000 bucks.

3: Spares children from being raised unattended and unwanted.

4: Spares the rest of us from children being raised unattended and unwanted (crime etc)

5: Definite standard of living upgrade for those who don't want to be responsible for another person for 18 years.

6: Saves us taxpayers a ton of money (see #2)

Now again, I don't disrespect those who consistently feel that abortion is murder -- just don't sidetrack yourself onto the "benefit" argument ... it's a loser for you.

Those who disagree with your "life begins at conception" position find the above benefits quite compelling.

JB
 
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