Any Berlin (Germany) Traders?

[dandxg]

Why is Berlin so cheap? I have seen RE listings a few years back on Ex Pat websites and it seemed cheaper.

The ony big city, besides Cologne, I haven't been to in Germany, have extended family in Frankfurt.

I have been to Vienna several times, just 10 days for some punsch and X mas treats. I do like it much but so much graffiti and sex shops I thought I was in Amersterdam. The pedestrian zones are quite nice. Schumberg Palace, check spelling, is one of the nice sites in Europe IMO. Nice too for a non native speaker, everyone speaks some English.

 

[sculptor66]

Quote from dandxg:

Why is Berlin so cheap? I have seen RE listings a few years back on Ex Pat websites and it seemed cheaper.

About 25% of Berlin's population live on welfare. Also, Berlin is notoriously known for it's 'left scene', which are more or less militant socialist activists. Every year, a few hundred luxury cars go up in flames in Berlin, set on fire by those 'activists'.

Of course, there are also very nice places, like in every other large city. But I don't think Berlin as a whole is especially attractive to people with money. It's not like New York - it just wants to be.

 

[dandxg]

Quote from sculptor66:

About 25% of Berlin's population live on welfare. Also, Berlin is notoriously known for it's 'left scene', which are more or less militant socialist activists. Every year, a few hundred luxury cars go up in flames in Berlin, set on fire by those 'activists'.

Of course, there are also very nice places, like in every other large city. But I don't think Berlin as a whole is especially attractive to people with money. It's not like New York - it just wants to be.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Pasternak]

Quote from sculptor66:

About 25% of Berlin's population live on welfare. Also, Berlin is notoriously known for it's 'left scene', which are more or less militant socialist activists. Every year, a few hundred luxury cars go up in flames in Berlin, set on fire by those 'activists'.

Of course, there are also very nice places, like in every other large city. But I don't think Berlin as a whole is especially attractive to people with money. It's not like New York - it just wants to be.

That's my impression as well. It also attracts a lot of "artistic people" because the city is so cheap compared to other major cities. Those people rarely make much money.... (?) Anyhow, I'm just going to visit.

BTW, I read somewhere that capital gains in Germany is 25% flat now for holdings held less than a year and less than 1% of the company. I guess this only applies as long as this is not a "business"?

 

[dandxg]

I am bit surprised by the 25% on welfare, thinking about it. I recall my West German friend outraged his taxes were going sky high for reunification back in the 90's, but this is 2010.

It's been long enough to take the communism out of communists I would think. Recalling how years after The Wall came done some East Berliners were instutionalized to be slouchers as the received the same whether good nor bad.

So I guess it would be rather naive to assume Berlin is a safe city with so many beggars?

I really like Munich, their version of the Smithsonian is quite awesome, forget name.

 

[moarla]

berlin is as safe as every german city: Its safe!
Minich is a conservative city more like a big village, Berlin is a liberal "lefty" city with much space, so maby because of that prcies for real estate are cheaper.
Munich is boring, Berlin not.
BUT: Munich is very clean, Berlin not.
Berlin is fun(so many clubs bars restaurants etc.), Munich is rich

Its like always, every coin has 2 sides....

 

[makloda]

Quote from dandxg:

It's been long enough to take the communism out of communists I would think.

[...]

So I guess it would be rather naive to assume Berlin is a safe city with so many beggars?

IIRC, the labor productivity in the former communist part of Germany today is still below the levels of e.g. the Czech Republic. The Czech Republic didn't receive a trillion Euros in transfer payments to build a high quality infrastructure, yet they were better at catching up with the West. An interesting lesson in economics.

Regarding crime, Berlin may appear much much much safer than most US metropolitan areas, but by German standards it may not be as safe as Munich or Stuttgart. I'd not twink twice about taking a stroll through any area of the latter at 3 am on a Friday night. I wouldn't try the same in the well-known hotspots (Kreuzberg, Neukölln) of Berlin.

 

[Harald]

Have been living and working in London, Paris, Zurich and Berlin.
Some thoughts on this:

None of the DAX30 companies has its headquarters in Berlin. Compare to CAC40 or FTSE100. Industry could neither survive 45 years of Communism in the East nor the difficult setting in Berlin West during the cold war. There was a transfer of subsidies from West Germany to West Berlin until 1990, preserving some of the industries, but subsidies were cut afterwards. Rebuilding industries will take 30 - 50 years.

After 1990 investors came to the East like gold diggers, prices for real estate moved up. A moderate version of irrational exuberance - not to be compared to Anglo-Saxonian type of real estate booms - and new rules for accelerated depreciation lead to considerable overinvestment. So real estate will probably stay cheap for a longer time.

What does this mean for a trader?

In Berlin a house with a garden close to the centre can be rented for a price that will get you a small 2-room-appartment in London.

Berlin is underpopulated. Green areas per inhabitant will be more than 100 times higher compared to Paris. Count on seeing lots of foxes and wild boar - actual population is not known, but 2400 were shot in 2008 within the boundaries of Berlin. Ideal, if you enjoy jogging, cycling or sailing.

Cultural offer is next to unlimited, more than anyone can take.

Safety: Better than any American city. There are some areas, where I would not feel comfortable to walk alone at 3 a.m., but there is no reason to walk around there....

Now to the shortcomings:

Berlin is not posh and shiny, its architecture cannot be compared to Paris or London, after World War II, part of the city has been rebuilt cheaply with a considerable lack of taste.

Berlin is not a shopper's paradise. Shops are less upmarket compared to other European cities, consequence of the lack of purchase power...

The beach (Baltic Sea) is a 3 hours drive by car, and although it is magnificient, it will be usually too cold to swim.

It will take you 1 hour by plane or at least 7 hours by car to get to a ski ressort.

 

[dandxg]

Good feedback thanks. Since I can get EU residency easy I am thinking about some options. I like Germany, but neither wife nor I speak german. We have also considered Slovak Republic since its close to her parents and taxes are cheaper than CZ. I also like that Forbes thinks it will do well.

 

[Ghost of Cutten]

Quote from dandxg:

Good feedback thanks. Since I can get EU residency easy I am thinking about some options. I like Germany, but neither wife nor I speak german. We have also considered Slovak Republic since its close to her parents and taxes are cheaper than CZ. I also like that Forbes thinks it will do well.

CZ has recently gone to a flat tax that is comparable to Slovakia, so it might be worth looking at, since Prague is a lot more appealing than Bratislava for lifestyle purposes.