Anxiety and nervousness

[NoDoji]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

This may sound harsh, but the truth often is:

IMO, trigger shyness is the worst possible trait a trader can have. Has anyone here ever seen a trigger-shy trader manage to build himself a genuinely successful career in this business? I've never once seen it done- just wondering if exceptions to this rule exist at all.

Rearden, it's possible to get over it. It took me a few months to even get going, then after several large losses it took me a while once again to be confident. The key is to stop thinking (no voices!), know and accept your plan in advance, then follow through (that means no voices; “When you rationalize a position, nine times out of 10 you will lose money.” – Eric Oberg.)

As for a genuinely successful career? Check back with me next year

 

[maxpi]

I've been experimenting with hormone adjustment supplements. So far I've had my first winter in memory with no depression. I raised my endorphin level and depression started to become a thing of the past. Along with that fear of failure went away too.. I raised my serotonin level with another supplement and I overdid it a bit, the other day I was walking through a mall parking lot challenging cars for the right of way and singing at the top of my lungs [not making this up]. So I scaled back on the serotonin stuff, it can have very serious consequences in high doses anyhow.. of course D3 is for the winter and probably has nothing to do with fear of failure... it is quite possible that a trader with a fear of pulling the trigger should look into getting his hormones at levels that work for him... One notable thing that Van Tharp said was that all the traders that come to him for help don't have a real edge in the markets.. he wrote about money management a bit. It can take a weak edge and strengthen it, it can't do a thing for a really strong trading strategy really...

 

[Neoxx]

Quote from maxpi:

I've been experimenting with hormone adjustment supplements...

...I raised my serotonin level with another supplement...

Drugs or 'supplements' should never be the first port of call for anxiety or depression - which often go hand in hand - particularly for reactive symptoms, which are by far the most common.

Here in the UK we have NICE, the National Institute for Clinical Excellence. They assess treatments, and make recommendations based on current evidence.

The first-line and arguably best treatment for anxiety/depression is regular exercise, naturally raising endorphin levels without any of the negative side-effects that can accompany medication use, but a host of additional benefits instead.

Failing that, cognitive behavioural therapy can also be very effective.

 

[paperboy]

Meditation works!

 

[wavel]

Quote from austinp:

<i>"I would speculate that after a minimum of one year of consistent profits where the trader uses the 1 min timeframe that it is possible for them to be completely eliminated (In terms of their capacity to influence your actions), as any pause for thought would reduce trading the 1 minute timeframe to a pointless activity (Unless you like losing money, which is a rather dubious thought)."</i>

Actually, a 1-minute chart is rather slow. Think about that... you have 59 seconds from bar close to bar close for deliberation. That is two complete tv commercials back to back.

For a very active daytrader banging out ticks, a 1-min chart is stodgy. If you work with 200 tick or smaller in ES, then speed becomes a factor. But speed of execution is not where those voices of fear and doubt come from. Speed has nothing to do with that, at all.

Fear and doubt, trigger-shyness etc, comes from base fear that potential losses cannot be overcome with subsequent wins. It is the expectancy of profit / loss ratio which quells fear. If you are trading a -2pt ES stop while targeting +8pt gains, the +4/-1 ratio of expectancy is much easier to stomach than a +1/-1 or guaranteed to fail -2/+1 ratios are.

Cut losses reasonably short... let winners run. THAT is the behavioral habit which builds confidence in pulling triggers. When you come to expect results of -$100 or +$400 per contract due to repeated observance of such, fear melts away.

For those who think a +8pt ES profit objective is unrealistic, take a look at the 5min chart for any given calendar month since Jan 2007. Several of those (and twice that size) swings are available most every day. Get good at hunting for them, and your fear will be be replaced by confidence.

Great input and some interesting considerations regarding fear and the inability to overcome losses. My system uses the 1 min timeframe as I find that this is the best timeframe to prevent over trading whilst also providing the opportunity to find upto 20 trades per day (dependent upon the conditions of price action on the trading day) that produce satisfactory profit levels, (satisfactory in terms of observing accumulative progress.)

You appear to prefer to wait for the close, and in that respect 1 min can be considered "stodgy". My plan no longer requires the close, (I used to wait, but no longer do) and as you will know, entering a trade after the close on the 1 min timeframe eliminates the opportunity to obtain the length of the doji's tail, due to the velocity of price action when a doji is formed, therefore dependent upon your system, speed is an issue that requires attention.

Speed can be a factor that produces fear due to the questions that are raised if the trader feels they have "missed the boat" in terms of best entry. This is why pulling the trigger when the signal is generated must be executed with utmost urgency (in a relaxed style, ofcourse). A moment for pause when your system no longer requires the closing price (on a 1 min timeframe) is the difference between the slow lane and the fast lane in terms of wealth accumulation (for the 1 min trader).

 

[austinp]

<i>"Speed can be a factor that produces fear due to the questions that are raised if the trader feels they have "missed the boat" in terms of best entry. This is why pulling the trigger when the signal is generated must be executed with utmost urgency (in a relaxed style, ofcourse)."</i>

I agree with all that. However, how strong can fear of loss be with an approach that generates +/- 20 signals per day? If someone fears missing out on every single potential trade from that average sequence, they need to call gamblers anonymous.

Also, the purpose of setting a chart's bar sequence usually factors in bar-close confirmation of trade signals being validated. If someone trades intrabar, it really doesn't matter if they look at a 1min, 30sec, 50 tick or whatever. If the open/close sequence of bars isn't part of trade signals validated, might as well watch a 5min chart and trade anywhere inside any of the bars.

Having said that, I used to anticipate many entries via doji bars and/or price behavior on a dome. What I discovered in my case is that the anticpation seldom made a difference... especially with ES which backfills every inch of its chart to begin with.

*

If we knew for a statistical fact that one type of trade we took would result in either a -$100 loss or +$400 win, while another type of trade we took would result in either a -$100 loss or +$50 win, which of those would be easier to pull the trigger on time after time?

 

[wavel]

Quote from austinp:

<i>"Speed can be a factor that produces fear due to the questions that are raised if the trader feels they have "missed the boat" in terms of best entry. This is why pulling the trigger when the signal is generated must be executed with utmost urgency (in a relaxed style, ofcourse)."</i>

I agree with all that. However, how strong can fear of loss be with an approach that generates +/- 20 signals per day? If someone fears missing out on every single potential trade from that average sequence, they need to call gamblers anonymous.

Also, the purpose of setting a chart's bar sequence usually factors in bar-close confirmation of trade signals being validated. If someone trades intrabar, it really doesn't matter if they look at a 1min, 30sec, 50 tick or whatever. If the open/close sequence of bars isn't part of trade signals validated, might as well watch a 5min chart and trade anywhere inside any of the bars.

Having said that, I used to anticipate many entries via doji bars and/or price behavior on a dome. What I discovered in my case is that the anticpation seldom made a difference... especially with ES which backfills every inch of its chart to begin with.

If we knew for a statistical fact that one type of trade we took would result in either a -$100 loss or +$400 win, while another type of trade we took would result in either a -$100 loss or +$50 win, which of those would be easier to pull the trigger on time after time?

Yes, IF somebody feared, but what if they eliminate fear? That is the whole purpose of organising the mind to react correctly. However, elimination of fear doesn't automatically create a mental environment that we can ignore, we need to continually manage this mental environment, which implies the continuity of "voices" until such point absolute excellence is aquired.

The difference between the intra candle entry and the backfill entry is that one can scale out from the intra candle entry and take profit immediately and re-enter upon the backfill. If you wait for the back, you won't have pocketed the trade that the intra candle trader pocketed. Infact, IMHO, the intra candle trader aquires mental composure much more quickly due to the early entry effectively paying for the stop on the backfill entry....

 

[nukethewhales31]

Quote from wavel:

Everytime you prepare to pull the trigger do you listen to the chatter deep within your subconsciousness asking "Is now the right time" "What if this isn't the high I'm looking for" " Should I wait a little longer" ? Can you feel it ? What is the solution ?

slower moving higher time frame charts using modified position size to scale evenly.. you can get into faster times as you go
slower frames give you more time to think may take some of what your experiencing away