Analysis of Christopher Hitchen's argument against God

Quote from trendlover:

"In the final analysis, the biochemical hypothesis of intelligent design fails not because the scientific community is closed to it but rather for the most basic of reasons — because it is overwhelmingly contradicted by the scientific evidence."

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/nhmag.html

I am sure anyone is arguing for intelligent design on this thread as defined by your link. I was arguing there is evidence of design in the fine tunings. that does not me I am arguing there is proof of design.

Note... I was taught evolution in school and believed that we evolved from apes. Until I read about this debate five or six years ago on et. When i was stunned to find out we did have proof we came from apes.

Now, as I am studying this, I am finding out science does not even know the mechanism of how life would have sprung from non life. We really did learn a bunch of baloney in school. the textbooks were really going overboard on how solid the science of evolution is.
 
"Until man duplicates a blade of grass, nature can laugh at his so-called scientific knowledge." -- Thomas Edison

Quote from jem:

science does not even know the mechanism of how life would have sprung from non life.
 
"Nature's imperfect reproductive methods regularly produce mutations, so that there are always unique individuals."

Imperfect in whose opinion? Give me a reason that could not be a product of design, rather than random chance.

Regularly produce mutations? Regularly, sounds like a design in nature, a plan.

"Individuals which, as a result of those mutations, are better adapted to their environment will have more offspring, either because they survive more often or are better able to attract mates."

Better is a value judgment. Again, there is noting that is happening that could not be by design vs. non design.

"Those more suitable adaptations will be prone to spreading through an entire population."

Those better and more suitable designs will be prone to spreading through an entire population. No evidence that random ignorant chance is causal.

Over time, as those adaptations accumulate, populations are modified into new species.

Over time, as these planed change accumulate, populations are modified into planned new species.

Given the immense amount of geologic time on this earth, this process, known as "natural selection," has produced all life on the earth from one or a few parents.

Given the immense amount of geological time on this earth, this process of ID has produced all life on the earth by design.

* Common chemical composition
* Common germinal vesicle (this is a nucleus that is formed when a cell begins to split in two)
* Common cellular structure
* Common laws of growth and reproduction


Common by design.

From the modern theory of evolution we know that the similarities are far more than he could have imagined.

Similar by design.

All DNA is transferable. Some viruses, which are not even cells but mere snippets of DNA, have even been assimilated into human DNA during our evolutionary history

All DNA is transferable. Some viruses, which are not even cells but mere snippets of DNA, have even been assimilated into human DNA by design during our evolutionary history.

Simply put, in the modern theory of evolution punctuated equilibrium (or "punk eek," as its opponents like to call it) says that species will tend to be stable for long periods, having adapted to their environment and their competition. Only when some change in the environment arises will the species begin to evolve again, and they will do so rapidly in response to new selection pressure (created by the change in environment).


Only when some change in the environment by design will the species begin to evolve again.

Both are talking about change occurring over thousands of years interrupted by even longer periods of stasis.

Both are talking about change by design occurring over thousands of years interrupted by even longer periods of stasis.

Overall, though, the modern theory of evolution has only established and confirm Darwin's basic idea of descent with modification and left us marveling at his incredible insight into the progress and development of life on earth.

Overall, though, the modern theory of evolution has only established and confirm Darwin's basic idea of descent by design with modification and left us marveling at his incredible insight into the progress and development of life on earth.

Everywhere chance is used, just substitute design, and the theories don't actually change.

Why is that?

Because the study of evolution is the study of effects and process only. Science has not delved into causation, and there is no proof of chance, because science does not know causation it merely assumes causation.

Nothing changes when design is assumed, except that people can't "imagine" how things were designed the way they are, or they are anti design to begin with.

Examination of a design doesn't yield the cause of design. We don't know the underlying cause...so there is no valid reason to assume design over chance...or chance over design. Both work exactly the same in their results in the evolutionary model.

Unmistakably, the world appears designed. So when the world appears design, that would be the natural first assumption. All of the work done by Darwin has not disproved designed, nor has it revealed a force of random ignorant chance...so tell me, exactly why do we not use design over chance? Could it be the design of scientists who have an agenda to ignore the obvious because they have an atheistic agenda?

Imagine is the majority of scientists suddenly realized the innate unproved assumption, and changed it to design...or just said we don't now why these mutations happen. We just know that something caused internally a change and/or interacted externally with an organism to produce change.

What is that something that causes mutation, and what is that something the underlies the environmental interaction.

Scientists don't know.

How would a change of chance to design actually impact biology? Not a bit. The science won't change, the scientists would perhaps change their mind, but logically, what if a scientist takes a first proposition of unproved design, or a first proposition of unproved non design...the reality of life and the processes of life don't change one bit. Biological processes are not dependent on a theory of random ignorant chance. Were mankind to vanish, the processes in biology would continue the same as they always have. They don't need a theory of chance to continue, they don't need a theory of design to continue. They just follow the course they are on. A course that could be by design, or chance.

This is why the current ideas of evolution rest on a belief system, not a known force or law of nature. Just because we can't predict when or where or why a change will happen speaks to our own ignorance, not a knowledge of random ignorant chance being causal.





Quote from trendlover:

"Nature answers only when she is questioned." –Jacob Henle (1809-1885)
 
What is theistic evolution?

Theistic evolution is the belief that life on earth began and developed as described by modern evolution theory, directed by God. Rather than random mutation producing change, theistic evolution claims that God guided the process of natural selection. In some religious circles, theistic evolution is an increasingly popular theory.

In the secular scientific community, however, support of theistic evolution is minimal. Because most scientists are atheistic, suggestions of God’s involvement in creation are usually dismissed. This dismissal is typically condescending and abrupt. Although denials of theistic evolution are less derogatory, the underlying message remains: science and God do not mix. This unfortunate attitude has stifled intelligent debate about the origins of life.

In addition to scientific detractors, many theologians debate scriptural support of theistic evolution. Some theistic evolutionists point to certain biblical stories, such as parables. Parables, however, are not literal events but stories teaching moral lessons. Theistic evolutionists also believe that the creation account of Genesis is figurative -- not literal. However, the language of Genesis is time-specific, and the rest of the book is not characterized by metaphorical descriptions.

The primary argument of theistic evolution is that science has “proven” certain facts about biology and the age of the universe. Therefore, religion ought to keep up with modern science. This argument is faulty because science has not, and cannot, agree on or accurately measure the age of the earth or the mechanics of evolution.

The supposed age of the earth has consistently grown older and older as scientists realize how complex life is. DNA and genetic discoveries have lessoned the likelihood of random evolution. Unanswered questions remain. To assume that these unproven theories are factual, simply because most scientists believe them, is to assume that the Bible is secondary to popular opinion.

Theistic evolution is actually a philosophy that dismisses biblical accounts in favor of scientific theories. It assumes that modern science must be correct and ought not be questioned. But are scientists infallible? Great minds of past scientists were sometimes mistaken. They claimed that the sun orbited the earth, heavier-than-air flight was impossible, and blood transfusions were dangerous. They were proven wrong. Likewise, modern scientists are capable of error. Giving them special treatment in an open debate of ideas is foolish.

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/theistic-evolution-faq.htm
 
Does the Origin and Evolution of Life Suggest Design

When Darwin proposed the theory of evolution, he envisioned that the process was continuous. He believed that the complexity and diversity of life could be explained by numerous slight modifications to existing species. His whole theory hinges on the idea that nature will preserve beneficial variations (natural selection) and thereby guide evolution creating new and more complex animals and plants.



"If it could ever be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." - Charles Darwin



Over a century later, science has yet to show that complex organs can be formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, and many scientists do not think that this is important. To understand why, it is first necessary to examine the assumptions on which science is based. Science is based on two assumptions called axioms.



Observable axiom: scientists can accurately observe reality, and then propose theories and laws to explain their observations.



Naturalistic axiom: everything can be explained by the laws of physics, chemistry, biology and mathematics.



Axioms are self-evident assumptions. Without the observable axiom, science cannot function properly. If scientists cannot observe reality or if they observe it incorrectly, then all scientific theories are suspect. Fortunately, this axiom is self-evident to most.

The naturalistic axiom is different in two respects: 1) it is not self-evident to 90% of the population 2) science can function properly without it because unlike the observable axiom the naturalistic axiom can be tested.

Today science does not understand how life originated. The better science understands the nature of the problems associated with the origin of life the more mysterious life’s origin becomes. Today, every theory concerning the origin of life suffers from the same problem. The probability of life originating is so small that the extreme age and size of the universe cannot offset the poor odds. The most popular theory concerning the origin of life proposes that life arose as a perpetual motion machine (see chapter 10). Yet physics clearly states that perpetual motion cannot exist.

Joyce and Orgel describe the situation best with the following quote: " It must be said that the details of this process remain obscure and are not likely to be known in the near future."

- The RNA World, p72-73.

This dilemma places science in an awkward position. The naturalistic axiom forces science to only consider origin of life theories that do not require a supernatural explanation. Yet these theories continue to fall short and do not explain how life originated. Because evolutionists are unwilling to abandon the naturalistic axiom, they must make one final assumption. They assume that one day science will unravel the mystery of life’s origin. Unfortunately, many evolutionists are unaware that they have made this assumption. Thus, they continue to claim that evolution is a proven fact when in reality they have only assumed that it is true.

This third assumption obviously has far reaching consequences because with this assumption, evolution cannot be disproved. Any observation that evolution does not explain is simply ignored. This places the theory of evolution on a pedestal. The theory cannot be disproved because science has already made the assumption that it is true. Furthermore, this assumption also explains why scientists are in no hurry to apply Darwin’s proposed test to evolution. Most scientists simply do not see the need to prove that a complex organ can form through a series of numerous, slight, continuous modifications. They have already assumed that evolution explains the origin of complex organs. Why test something that must be true?


What is Intelligent Design?

Intelligent design is based on the observable axiom. The theory does not assume that the naturalistic axiom is true, but rather attempts to verify the axiom, and it accomplishes this with indirect logic.

Consider the problems with life’s origin. The probability of a living system evolving on the earth or anywhere in the universe can be calculated, and if this probability is so small that the vast size and age of the universe cannot overcome the poor odds, then design should be inferred. The goal of this book is to perform the above calculations and to show that the design inference is justified.

Unlike evolution, intelligent design can be disproved. Suppose tomorrow that one scientist unravels the mystery of life’s origin, and that another demonstrates that a complex organ can be explained by the laws of physics, chemistry, biology and mathematics. When and if this happens, the theory of intelligent design will be disproved.

Intelligent design like science requires one final assumption. The theory assumes that science will not solve the mystery of life’s origin. In the 1950s, this would have been a very dangerous assumption. Most scientists would have argued that they were just beginning to understand the nature of the problem and that they had not had time to solve it. Fifty years later, such arguments are weak. Not only has science had ample time, but the solutions have become more elusive with time. As the years pass, the probability of science finding a solution will continue to fall, and the design inference will continue to become stronger as indicated by the height of the bars in the figure below.

Evolution or Intelligent Design Theory

Intelligent Design and Creationism

Creationism is a broad term that can mean many different things. Many creationists believe that the earth is only 5000 years old and that it was created in six 24 hour days. Others believe that the earth is 5 billion years old and that life was created slowly as time passed or in spurts separated by large expanses of time. Creationism is different from intelligent design because it is based on the existence axiom.

Existence axiom: God exists.

This axiom separates intelligent design from creationism in an important way. If science explains the mystery of life’s origin, most people will still believe in God. So unlike intelligent design, creationism cannot be disproved.

Evolution and the Origin of Life

The design inference in this book is only drawn from the origin of life and the evolution of the very first genes and proteins. Others have attempted to infer design from the evolution of new classes of animals. This book stays away from this practice because the inference is weak. While evolutionists assume that naturalistic laws can explain how a bird evolved from a reptile, many intelligent design advocates seem to just assume the opposite. Neither side has introduced accurate mathematical models or computer simulations to describe such an evolutionary transition. Life is definitely very good at evolving. It has developed techniques that create new information by re-arranging and shuffling existing information. Furthermore, the DNA of a bird is not that different from that of a reptile. These factors weaken the design inference.

In my opinion, it is illogical to invoke design for the origin of life and then assume that the designer played no part in the rest. Thus, this book will focus on the origin of life and the evolution of the first genes and proteins. These two events clearly imply design.

http://theory-of-evolution.net/introduction/intelligent-design-creationism-evolution.php
 
Quote from trendlover:

http://www.proof-of-evolution.com/modern-theory-of-evolution.html


Jem, so many people talk bad about evolution, but they do not see how study of evolution make insulin, for one example. So this same people who talk bad about evolution go use the medicine ( created only from the study of evolution) to help their children, their friends, all who they love.

I just want to clear , I do not talk bad of about the concept of evolution, I have been convinced there is evolution... just not the same evolution we were taught in school.

I simply detest kooks who teach that science is in possession of evidence it does not have.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:
"This dilemma places science in an awkward position. The naturalistic axiom forces science to only consider origin of life theories that do not require a supernatural explanation. Yet these theories continue to fall short and do not explain how life originated. Because evolutionists are unwilling to abandon the naturalistic axiom, they must make one final assumption. They assume that one day science will unravel the mystery of life’s origin. Unfortunately, many evolutionists are unaware that they have made this assumption. Thus, they continue to claim that evolution is a proven fact when in reality they have only assumed that it is true

"Thus, this book will focus on the origin of life and the evolution of the first genes and proteins. These two events clearly imply design."

http://theory-of-evolution.net/intr...m-evolution.php
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I did not read this book. But this author is saying because evolutionists do not know "how life originated", so evolutionists "assume" they find this answer in the future, and that prove evolution is really not fact? That is stupid. There is so much evidence for evolution of life.
 
Could we agree that evidence is just raw data? That evidence in the way evolutionists speak of evidence is more often than not just fitting into a model that was designed to assume chance (when chance is not proved)?

It is a circular argument.

If you place a bunch of numbers in front of a 6th grader, the numbers don't show a total. The 6th graders has to total them up. The number in front of the 6th grader are not evidence of a total sum of the numbers. Math is applied to the numbers to get a total.

Is this what evolutionists are doing? In a way, but they have presupposed chance, then put the data together to "prove" chance.

It is not a logical argument, as they have no math of chance, no math of evolution, just a guess that works well enough for them to provide a possible explanation.

Not fact, just a guess based on an assumption of chance.

If you want to read the book I gave a link to, and have a fully detached agnostic view, I think you might be forced to examine some of the core beliefs that are assumed underlying present evolutionary theory.

What is the value in attacking the concept of random ignorant chance the way I do?

Does it make ID true? No, making non ID false does not make ID true.

I'm not arguing that ID is true, I am arguing the non ID theory is logically false.

I think if you read the book and look at all the mini flaws, they will give a logical view that non ID is just an "educated" guess...but that is not the way it is presented. It is presented as a fact, which it is not.

I think the point the author is making, is that assumptions are made on both sides, neither of which can be proved, but ID can be disproved...which has never happened, but the non ID case has no way to disprove it.

Ask someone how you could disprove non ID, ask how you could prove or disprove evolutionary theory made an incorrect first assumption, and other unproved assumptions along the way. If they were a well versed scientist or a well versed philosopher who understood how arguments are constructed and how a single logical fallacy can destroy the entire validity of the argument, I suspect you will get a different view of the debate.

No one from the non ID camp has yet to step up and show how replacing random ignorant chance with ID would chance the results of the evolutionary models...


Quote from trendlover:

Quote from OPTIONAL777:
"This dilemma places science in an awkward position. The naturalistic axiom forces science to only consider origin of life theories that do not require a supernatural explanation. Yet these theories continue to fall short and do not explain how life originated. Because evolutionists are unwilling to abandon the naturalistic axiom, they must make one final assumption. They assume that one day science will unravel the mystery of life’s origin. Unfortunately, many evolutionists are unaware that they have made this assumption. Thus, they continue to claim that evolution is a proven fact when in reality they have only assumed that it is true

"Thus, this book will focus on the origin of life and the evolution of the first genes and proteins. These two events clearly imply design."

http://theory-of-evolution.net/intr...m-evolution.php
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I did not read this book. But this author is saying because evolutionists do not know "how life originated", so evolutionists "assume" they find this answer in the future, and that prove evolution is really not fact? That is stupid. There is so much evidence for evolution of life.
 
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