An open honest discussion on the state of Ninjatrader 7

C

charlieThomas

I would like to start a discussion thread about the state of Ninjatrader 7 which is currently at beta version 7.0.0.19. I realize Ray is sensitive to negative comments about NT but I think we need an open, honest discussion. I hope we can keep the comments on topic and not personal or inflammatory.

First off, I am a very satisfied user of Ninjatrader 6.5. I use it daily for real production trading. I've written very complex Ninjascript code that I use in my daily trading. However, I currently have another very complex Ninjascript coding project in mind that I want to get started on but I don't know which platform, NT6.5 or NT7, to target.

So far, I have not participated in the beta program. I've been trying to patiently wait for the production version release. I know how difficult it is to push reliable, stable production code out the door but the length of time of this beta is concerning me. Also, the list of fixes for the latest betas is very large and doesn't seem to be shrinking.

It will probably take me several months to develop my new Ninjascript project. The logical thing to do would be to just bite the bullet and start writing Ninjascript code in NT7. I'm eager to try out some of the new functionality and move on to the next version of C#. However, when you are pushing the edge of your coding skills with a new concept, your code will initially be very unstable. Writing unstable code (my Ninjascript) on top of another chunk of unstable code (beta NT7) seems like more of a potential nightmare than I care to undertake at this time. I'm getting too old to dance on the bleeding edge anymore :).

I would really like to here from some of the Ninjatrader 7 beta testers. I'm assuming there are no longer any non-disclosure agreement issues. I would especially like to here about how the Ninjascript development experience is.

thanks,
cT
 
If you are such a competent programmer - and I think you sound like one - what do you need NT for? Take the API of your broker and develop code directly there. You will have mimimum delays, stable execution and you will not be dependent on someone else's work.

What are you doing in NT in terms of execution that cannot be done directly with the IB API for example?
 
Quote from intradaybill:

If you are such a competent programmer - and I think you sound like one - what do you need NT for? Take the API of your broker and develop code directly there. You will have mimimum delays, stable execution and you will not be dependent on someone else's work.

What are you doing in NT in terms of execution that cannot be done directly with the IB API for example?
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This is a stupid comment. NT is a great, convenient platform to develop on. It's also "stable" and has "minimum delays". Unless you're trying to HFT, I don't see how NT introduces any meaningful delays.

Trying to build your own trading platform on an broker's API would be a waste of time, when there is a platform like NT which is very convenient. The only reason to do it yourself is if there is something very specific you want to squeeze from a particular broker. But then you won't have the benefits of trading multiple brokers.

NT handles almost everything you need, plus it's user interface is great. Why would I waste months trying to duplicate that when NT already works.
 
Quote from charlieThomas:

I would like to start a discussion thread about the state of Ninjatrader 7 which is currently at beta version 7.0.0.19. I realize Ray is sensitive to negative comments about NT but I think we need an open, honest discussion. I hope we can keep the comments on topic and not personal or inflammatory.

First off, I am a very satisfied user of Ninjatrader 6.5. I use it daily for real production trading. I've written very complex Ninjascript code that I use in my daily trading. However, I currently have another very complex Ninjascript coding project in mind that I want to get started on but I don't know which platform, NT6.5 or NT7, to target.

So far, I have not participated in the beta program. I've been trying to patiently wait for the production version release. I know how difficult it is to push reliable, stable production code out the door but the length of time of this beta is concerning me. Also, the list of fixes for the latest betas is very large and doesn't seem to be shrinking.

It will probably take me several months to develop my new Ninjascript project. The logical thing to do would be to just bite the bullet and start writing Ninjascript code in NT7. I'm eager to try out some of the new functionality and move on to the next version of C#. However, when you are pushing the edge of your coding skills with a new concept, your code will initially be very unstable. Writing unstable code (my Ninjascript) on top of another chunk of unstable code (beta NT7) seems like more of a potential nightmare than I care to undertake at this time. I'm getting too old to dance on the bleeding edge anymore :).

I would really like to here from some of the Ninjatrader 7 beta testers. I'm assuming there are no longer any non-disclosure agreement issues. I would especially like to here about how the Ninjascript development experience is.

thanks,
cT
More...

One guy I've been following switched over to NT7 for his daily automated trading a few months back, and it was a nightmare for him. I'm not sure if he's still on NT7 or if he rolled back to 6.5. The type of trading he was doing wasn't very complicated at all, which had me a bit worried.

Until they are confident enough to say they will support live trading on it, I wouldn't touch it. You won't know if the bug is because of you or because of NT7, and that could burn a lot of your time. I would wait until they release it, and then start developing then. It's probably easier to develop on NT6.5 and then port it, unless you want to center the project around NT7 specific features.

It does look pretty sweet though, and has a bunch of features I've very interested in. I'm hoping that it will stabilize soon, although I don't think I will use it until 2011 at the earliest. To be frank, it's not very impressive that this project has gone on so long the way it has, it reeks of a software project gone horribly wrong.
 
Quote from charlieThomas:

I would like to start a discussion thread about the state of Ninjatrader 7 which is currently at beta version 7.0.0.19. I realize Ray is sensitive to negative comments about NT but I think we need an open, honest discussion. I hope we can keep the comments on topic and not personal or inflammatory.

First off, I am a very satisfied user of Ninjatrader 6.5. I use it daily for real production trading. I've written very complex Ninjascript code that I use in my daily trading. However, I currently have another very complex Ninjascript coding project in mind that I want to get started on but I don't know which platform, NT6.5 or NT7, to target.

So far, I have not participated in the beta program. I've been trying to patiently wait for the production version release. I know how difficult it is to push reliable, stable production code out the door but the length of time of this beta is concerning me. Also, the list of fixes for the latest betas is very large and doesn't seem to be shrinking.

It will probably take me several months to develop my new Ninjascript project. The logical thing to do would be to just bite the bullet and start writing Ninjascript code in NT7. I'm eager to try out some of the new functionality and move on to the next version of C#. However, when you are pushing the edge of your coding skills with a new concept, your code will initially be very unstable. Writing unstable code (my Ninjascript) on top of another chunk of unstable code (beta NT7) seems like more of a potential nightmare than I care to undertake at this time. I'm getting too old to dance on the bleeding edge anymore :).

I would really like to here from some of the Ninjatrader 7 beta testers. I'm assuming there are no longer any non-disclosure agreement issues. I would especially like to here about how the Ninjascript development experience is.

thanks,
cT
More...

You do know that the Beta is public now, right? And that you can try it and see for yourself at any time?
 
Quote from jedwards:

This is a stupid comment. NT is a great, convenient platform to develop on. It's also "stable" and has "minimum delays". Unless you're trying to HFT, I don't see how NT introduces any meaningful delays.

Trying to build your own trading platform on an broker's API would be a waste of time, when there is a platform like NT which is very convenient. The only reason to do it yourself is if there is something very specific you want to squeeze from a particular broker. But then you won't have the benefits of trading multiple brokers.

NT handles almost everything you need, plus it's user interface is great. Why would I waste months trying to duplicate that when NT already works.
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This is a stupid reply. If you are a good programmer you do not have and you should not have to rely on other people's work. As far as execution of trades, you do not have to build a trading platform. It takes minimum work to develop and test a trading algorithm, even for basket trading. Probably you have no idea how to do it and this is why you think it is stupid. No serious trader who has an edge relies on retail platforms.
 
I've played with NT7 a bit and it seems fine for the basic charting. I don't think it would meet the rigors of a mission-critical system for a while even after it has been officially released.

One thing that seems odd is that some things that apparently work on one beta version will inexplicably be broken in a subsequent version. And it is seemingly basic type stuff.

That is a bit unsettling.

It is a nice charting package though and it is free to use until you go live through it with broker, so can't really complain too much. They do deserve a lot of credit for that, so I say give it some time.
 
Suppose you have an edge, in HFT or even LFT and you want to automate it. If you use a platform that is distributed for free and you have no idea what it does internally then your are not well, period.
 
I use NT6.5 (for intraday stock trading), and think it’s great; and I’ve every confidence that NT7 will – in time – surpass 6.5.

(Sure, 6.5 has its foibles, but they’re known and well understood; and certainly not a barrier for what I need from the software; also, IMHO the NT support team/NT forum community are very, very good and helpful, and - for the time being at least - I would not dream of switching to anything other than NT)

As 6.5 does all I really need, I’ll be with the Early/Late Majority switching to 7 (rather than with the Innovators and Early Adopters), unless support for 6.5 is terminated earlier. Therefore, I won’t plan on switching until 2011/2012, by which time 7 should have settled down.

BTW, the fact that 7 is currently “buggy” doesn’t concern or surprise me; (to me at least) NT is a complex, sophisticated piece of software usable in an enormous number of different ways. I believe 7 is a complete reworking of the architecture; testing all possible use cases in the new architecture must be a mammoth task ... and heavy involvement of users (the Innovators and Early Adopters) in beta testing is a sensible (and brave, because it’s painful!) way to tackle this efficiently, which will automatically narrow the focus initially on the areas that most seem to concern the largest number of people. Hats off to the crew at NT for tackling it this way ... I’m sure they’ll get there in the end, and 7 will be a cracking product ...

In the meantime, I am happy to wait with 6.5 until 7 stabilizes ...
 
Quote from MarketMasher:

One thing that seems odd is that some things that apparently work on one beta version will inexplicably be broken in a subsequent version. And it is seemingly basic type stuff.
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I'm trading live with an old 7 beta version and after seeing all the problems of people upgrading to the latest beta+1 and then again a different group of people suddenly having problems when upgrading to the latest beta+2, I simply refuse to upgrade until they roll out the production version - which at this pace will be sometime by the end of 2011.

Really good product (no irony), really cool for new traders that you can use in sim mode for as long as you want (I traded sim for almost a year without forking over a penny), very appreciated the effort that Ray started to make to streamline communication over the development of version 7, but... it seems there's something either they (the developers) or we (the users) are not getting.

PS: Thank goodness that the comments weren't to be personal or inflammatory! :p
 
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