America To "Lose" In A Trade War?

What was the last war America won anyway?

Beat the crap out of the Indians... Mexico.. WWI, WWII, joint victor but.. Iraq I until that was totally blown..

Don't get in wars America.
 
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My concern with a potential trade war is that it will be like a “tide going out and dropping all boats”. A change in the current trade status quo will likely cause an populist backlash in the affected countries. This will in turn reduce foreign demand for U.S. products, regardless if that country’s government retaliates or not.

Although my perception is we have been getting the short end of the stick in trade deals in other administrations, we are playing a dangerous game geopolitically as our trading partners may look for new relationships in their effort to make up for the loss of U.S. business. In addition, some of these countries over time may become less tolerant to U.S. military presence as their relationship grows with their new trading partners. Our trading competitors are well aware of this and may offer very good terms to help establish a new trade relationship.

I would have rather seen trade reforms focus on things like effective enforcement of U.S. intellectual property rights and appropiate, enforceable fines on other illegal trade practices.

It is more important for us to have a market for our value-added products than being competitive on bulk resources or basic manufactured items. There is less competition in the many of the value-added products and services we provide and these exports enjoy higher margins which allow higher wages to be paid to the American worker.

My hope is our trading partners realize the great ride they had and except these changes knowing they are still getting a great deal.

"My hope is our trading partners realize the great ride they had and except these changes knowing they are still getting a great deal."

IT IS ALL A TRUMP LIE.

Like one of his 2000 other bullshits the same suckers are giving him the benefit of the doubt AGAIN. Steel of overproduced, it is really easy to make as basically every country on the planet has ore. The Earth's crust is largely made of iron. China has been dumping on Europe, Europe moves some to the US who China is also dumping on.

Trump is going after Europe..which is the only formidable ally against China..

THE GODDAM EX HEAD OF GOLDMAN TOLD HIM TO GET FUCKED YESTERDAY. :) ???

And the boys? Well Trump has to be right eventually is the thinking? You are on the roulette table and you don't understand how it works.
 
"My hope is our trading partners realize the great ride they had and except these changes knowing they are still getting a great deal."

IT IS ALL A TRUMP LIE.

Like one of his 2000 other bullshits the same suckers are giving him the benefit of the doubt AGAIN. Steel of overproduced, it is really easy to make as basically every country on the planet has ore. The Earth's crust is largely made of iron. China has been dumping on Europe, Europe moves some to the US who China is also dumping on.

Trump is going after Europe..which is the only formidable ally against China..

THE GODDAM EX HEAD OF GOLDMAN TOLD HIM TO GET FUCKED YESTERDAY. :) ???

And the boys? Well Trump has to be right eventually is the thinking? You are on the roulette table and you don't understand how it works.

I understand you do a lot of multi-tasking. Please take the time to read my entire post and give me your thoughts on it.

By the way the top three elements in the Earth’s crust (where we mine from) are Oxygen, Silicon, and Aluminum.
 
I understand you do a lot of multi-tasking. Please take the time to read my entire post and give me your thoughts on it.

By the way the top three elements in the Earth’s crust (where we mine from) are Oxygen, Silicon, and Aluminum.

And the fourth at around 8%?

I read what you wrote. I could have said substantially I agree.
 
The economy is going to boom and Trump knows he can add a small load (or two) that will be negligible in the face of roaring growth.

That small load (or two) is the task of setting things right so far as companies dumping commodities and products in the USA to steal market share many times with subsidies like the Chinese. Another small load is the Wall and associated efforts to curb illegal immigration. Another small load might be the lowering of corporate taxes to attract more businesses.
 
The economy is going to boom and Trump knows he can add a small load (or two) that will be negligible in the face of roaring growth.

That small load (or two) is the task of setting things right so far as companies dumping commodities and products in the USA to steal market share many times with subsidies like the Chinese. Another small load is the Wall and associated efforts to curb illegal immigration. Another small load might be the lowering of corporate taxes to attract more businesses.

I track a transportation load board for an up to the minute indication of how our economy is doing. The reading it showed today is a full 10% higher now than then previous record set during the busy hollidays. And this is at the beginning of the month, which is typically slower than the end of the month. There are certainly capacity issues, but still these are huge numbers that imply our economy is currently accelerating.
 
I’m just wondering where do we go from here? This one could end up hurting everybody.

This time will pass however Trump has to go as this was silly, naked politics.

The economy WAS accelerating anyway.

He is just grasping for some win and his supporters are counting chickens before there are even eggs.

Gary Cohn leaving like that? Most of the guys on the right here in politics are non-traders (or just shuffle a few retail stocks) and don't grasp it. Traders don't have much if an idea but non-traders really don't understand how significant that was.

The never-happens gap has filed, some of us have made a ton of money, it may have been timed to let friends pocket a lot.

There is no crisis. The US economy was doing very well considering the rest of the world. He is shouting fire in a theater as Texas maybe (not likely) about to turn blue on the map. This and a score of other things he has sown but does not want to reap.

When Trump is gone, the manufactured crises will stop.
 
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Remember Bush’s 2002 steel tariffs? His chief of staff warns Trump not to do the same.

President Trump wants to tax steel coming into the United States. He isn't the first president to try this. George W. Bush put tariffs on a lot of steel imports in March 2002. Top Bush administration officials now say that was a mistake, and they are warning Trump not to make the same blunder.

“I don’t think it was smart policy to do it, to be honest,” said Andrew H. “Andy” Card Jr., Bush's chief of staff from 2001 to 2006. “The results were not what we anticipated in terms of its impact on the economy or jobs.”

Card is the latest high-ranking Bush administration official to warn Trump of just how bad it could get economically and politically if he proceeds. Josh Bolten, Bush's deputy chief of staff for policy in 2002, slammed Trump's tariffs.

“Whether the original thing was a mistake or not, and there’s a good argument that it was in 2002, there’s no question doing the same thing under 232 is a mistake of a much bigger magnitude,” Bolten said. He is now president of the Business Roundtable, an advocacy group for leading American executives. “This is a bad idea overall for the whole economy. "

The result of Bush's tariffs was a $30 million hit to the economy, according to a lengthy government report from the U.S. International Trade Commission in 2003. Studies by outside groups conclude that the United States lost jobs because of the move: The employment gains in factories that make raw steel were outweighed by job losses in other industries, especially at companies that take raw steel and make it into parts for cars and appliances. To put it another way, it cost about $400,000 per job saved in the steel industry, according to an estimate by the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

Bush originally intended to keep the tariffs for three years, but he ended them in December 2003. Trading partners, especially the European Union, threatened to retaliate with tariffs on Florida oranges and Carolina fabrics and textiles, and it became clear to White House staff members that it was backfiring.

“We didn’t expect it to cost us jobs,” Card said. “Once the tit-for-tat starts, there are unintended consequences. You don’t know the extent of how everyone else will react.”

The E.U. chose industries in politically important states that would get the president's attention, a tactic the European Union is using again with Trump by saying it would retaliate against Kentucky bourbon and Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Kentucky is the home state of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R), and Harley's main production factories are in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Missouri, key states that went for Trump. The World Trade Organization also declared the Bush steel tariffs illegal, a further blow to the Bush administration that led to the swift end of import taxes months ahead of schedule.

The Bush administration tried to spin it that the tariffs had “achieved their purpose” of sending a message to other countries not to mess with the United States, but looking back, senior officials admit it wasn't nearly as straightforward as they thought it would be. Key allies were upset, and some industries were harmed. They cringe now to hear Trump Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross and trade adviser Peter Navarro making it sound as though there will be no negative effects on American businesses or jobs from the tariffs.

“The impact of these tariffs from a macroeconomic point of view are zero,” Navarro told Fox Business on Monday. “The impact on the inflation rate are just close to zero. It’s like a nothing burger.”

Many in the Bush administration see it differently. Bush's top economists in the early 2000s — Greg Mankiw and Glenn Hubbard — signed a letter in July urging Trump not to impose tariffs, arguing that additional steel tariffs in particular would “damage the economy.” Mankiw is now a professor of economics at Harvard, and Hubbard is dean of the Columbia Business School.

“What we have learned over the years is that protectionism doesn't protect. Protectionism actually harms,” Bush commerce secretary Carlos Gutierrez told NPR.

There were 200,000 job losses from Bush's steel tariffs, according to a study by the Trade Partnership, a consulting firm that was paid to do the research by the industries that use steel and were hurt the most by the tariff. The Peterson Institute for International Economics, an independent think tank, said it's difficult to assess exact job losses solely from the tariffs, but their experts concluded that there were “net job losses” with few new jobs created in steel factories. Total steel jobs actually fell by over 13,000 during the tariff period, according to Labor Department statistics.

“We continue to be baffled by the willingness of unionized workers to believe that protection is a great benefit to them,” the Peterson Institute wrote in 2003.

Ralph Hardt, president of ‎Jagemann Stamping, says his company is “still recovering from the 2002 tariff.” He fears the Trump tariffs “could be a repeat, if not worse.”

Jagemann employs 300 people in Wisconsin and 100 in Tennessee. Workers at his company take raw steel and fashion it into the parts used in cars, refrigerators and other household products. But he says after Bush's tariffs on steel, big companies purchased more finished parts from overseas instead of U.S. companies.

“These decisions are put in place for years. If they decide to build transmissions in Mexico or buy products overseas, then these decisions are decades long and really impact our economy,” Hardt said. He didn't lay off employees in 2002, but he says it held him back from expanding since his profits were way down as steel costs rose and he wasn't able to pass them along to the companies buying his products.

Much like Trump, Bush was convinced that he needed to act to save steel jobs and protect the domestic industry from foreign competitors such as China that were dumping cheap steel on the market to undercut United States competitors. Bush, who was generally seen as pro-free trade, surprised many business and GOP leaders by putting in place taxes on steel imports that ranged from 15 percent to 30 percent.It's similar to Trump's idea to impose a 25 percent tariff on steel.

But Bush excluded key countries from the tariff, which helped lessen the hit to the economy. It didn't apply to Canada, Mexico, Jordan, Israel and many emerging nations. The goal in Bush's mind was to go after countries such as China, Japan and South Korea that were trying to beef up their steel industries, so he didn't put the import tax on countries the United States had signed free trade agreements with already.

Trump is signaling a different approach: He wants to subject all countries to the tariff. Members of his administration, including Ross and trade adviser Narvarro, have said the president is open to excluding certain steel products that aren't made in the United States, but not excluding countries, at least initially. Canada, a close ally, sends the most steel to the United States, according to government data.

“To protect our Country we must protect American Steel! #AMERICA FIRST” Trump tweeted Monday. He suggested that if Canada and Mexico renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement to his satisfaction, then he would exclude them from the tariff.

“The underlying reason for Bush's tariff was not national security, it was unfair trade practices,” Card said. “I don’t think the Canadians are cheating us.”

Bush and Trump are also using different justifications for the steel tariffs. Bush used Section 201 of the Trade Expansion Act, which allows the president to investigate whether a certain industry needs “safeguard” protections from imports because there are so many coming into a country that it's harming the domestic industry. Trump is using Section 232 of the law, which is when the president declares there is a national security threat from the imports. What Bush did was a lot less severe and easier to defend under international law.

Under 232, “it’s a totally different magnitude of damage, not just to downstream industries, but to the system itself,” Bolten said.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, the non 1%er republicans should stick to racism and conspiracy theories, the world is far too complicated for these Simple People.

For the rest, I think Trump knows he needs a recession to guarantee he gets the boot, otherwise the oligarchs will pressure him to do things in his second term that he's not going to like.
 
Remember Bush’s 2002 steel tariffs? His chief of staff warns Trump not to do the same.

President Trump wants to tax steel coming into the United States. He isn't the first president to try this. George W. Bush put tariffs on a lot of steel imports in March 2002. Top Bush administration officials now say that was a mistake, and they are warning Trump not to make the same blunder.

“I don’t think it was smart policy to do it, to be honest,” said Andrew H. “Andy” Card Jr., Bush's chief of staff from 2001 to 2006. “The results were not what we anticipated in terms of its impact on the economy or jobs.”

Card is the latest high-ranking Bush administration official to warn Trump of just how bad it could get economically and politically if he proceeds. Josh Bolten, Bush's deputy chief of staff for policy in 2002, slammed Trump's tariffs.

“Whether the original thing was a mistake or not, and there’s a good argument that it was in 2002, there’s no question doing the same thing under 232 is a mistake of a much bigger magnitude,” Bolten said. He is now president of the Business Roundtable, an advocacy group for leading American executives. “This is a bad idea overall for the whole economy. "

The result of Bush's tariffs was a $30 million hit to the economy, according to a lengthy government report from the U.S. International Trade Commission in 2003. Studies by outside groups conclude that the United States lost jobs because of the move: The employment gains in factories that make raw steel were outweighed by job losses in other industries, especially at companies that take raw steel and make it into parts for cars and appliances. To put it another way, it cost about $400,000 per job saved in the steel industry, according to an estimate by the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

Bush originally intended to keep the tariffs for three years, but he ended them in December 2003. Trading partners, especially the European Union, threatened to retaliate with tariffs on Florida oranges and Carolina fabrics and textiles, and it became clear to White House staff members that it was backfiring.

“We didn’t expect it to cost us jobs,” Card said. “Once the tit-for-tat starts, there are unintended consequences. You don’t know the extent of how everyone else will react.”

The E.U. chose industries in politically important states that would get the president's attention, a tactic the European Union is using again with Trump by saying it would retaliate against Kentucky bourbon and Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Kentucky is the home state of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R), and Harley's main production factories are in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Missouri, key states that went for Trump. The World Trade Organization also declared the Bush steel tariffs illegal, a further blow to the Bush administration that led to the swift end of import taxes months ahead of schedule.

The Bush administration tried to spin it that the tariffs had “achieved their purpose” of sending a message to other countries not to mess with the United States, but looking back, senior officials admit it wasn't nearly as straightforward as they thought it would be. Key allies were upset, and some industries were harmed. They cringe now to hear Trump Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross and trade adviser Peter Navarro making it sound as though there will be no negative effects on American businesses or jobs from the tariffs.

“The impact of these tariffs from a macroeconomic point of view are zero,” Navarro told Fox Business on Monday. “The impact on the inflation rate are just close to zero. It’s like a nothing burger.”

Many in the Bush administration see it differently. Bush's top economists in the early 2000s — Greg Mankiw and Glenn Hubbard — signed a letter in July urging Trump not to impose tariffs, arguing that additional steel tariffs in particular would “damage the economy.” Mankiw is now a professor of economics at Harvard, and Hubbard is dean of the Columbia Business School.

“What we have learned over the years is that protectionism doesn't protect. Protectionism actually harms,” Bush commerce secretary Carlos Gutierrez told NPR.

There were 200,000 job losses from Bush's steel tariffs, according to a study by the Trade Partnership, a consulting firm that was paid to do the research by the industries that use steel and were hurt the most by the tariff. The Peterson Institute for International Economics, an independent think tank, said it's difficult to assess exact job losses solely from the tariffs, but their experts concluded that there were “net job losses” with few new jobs created in steel factories. Total steel jobs actually fell by over 13,000 during the tariff period, according to Labor Department statistics.

“We continue to be baffled by the willingness of unionized workers to believe that protection is a great benefit to them,” the Peterson Institute wrote in 2003.

Ralph Hardt, president of ‎Jagemann Stamping, says his company is “still recovering from the 2002 tariff.” He fears the Trump tariffs “could be a repeat, if not worse.”

Jagemann employs 300 people in Wisconsin and 100 in Tennessee. Workers at his company take raw steel and fashion it into the parts used in cars, refrigerators and other household products. But he says after Bush's tariffs on steel, big companies purchased more finished parts from overseas instead of U.S. companies.

“These decisions are put in place for years. If they decide to build transmissions in Mexico or buy products overseas, then these decisions are decades long and really impact our economy,” Hardt said. He didn't lay off employees in 2002, but he says it held him back from expanding since his profits were way down as steel costs rose and he wasn't able to pass them along to the companies buying his products.

Much like Trump, Bush was convinced that he needed to act to save steel jobs and protect the domestic industry from foreign competitors such as China that were dumping cheap steel on the market to undercut United States competitors. Bush, who was generally seen as pro-free trade, surprised many business and GOP leaders by putting in place taxes on steel imports that ranged from 15 percent to 30 percent.It's similar to Trump's idea to impose a 25 percent tariff on steel.

But Bush excluded key countries from the tariff, which helped lessen the hit to the economy. It didn't apply to Canada, Mexico, Jordan, Israel and many emerging nations. The goal in Bush's mind was to go after countries such as China, Japan and South Korea that were trying to beef up their steel industries, so he didn't put the import tax on countries the United States had signed free trade agreements with already.

Trump is signaling a different approach: He wants to subject all countries to the tariff. Members of his administration, including Ross and trade adviser Narvarro, have said the president is open to excluding certain steel products that aren't made in the United States, but not excluding countries, at least initially. Canada, a close ally, sends the most steel to the United States, according to government data.

“To protect our Country we must protect American Steel! #AMERICA FIRST” Trump tweeted Monday. He suggested that if Canada and Mexico renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement to his satisfaction, then he would exclude them from the tariff.

“The underlying reason for Bush's tariff was not national security, it was unfair trade practices,” Card said. “I don’t think the Canadians are cheating us.”

Bush and Trump are also using different justifications for the steel tariffs. Bush used Section 201 of the Trade Expansion Act, which allows the president to investigate whether a certain industry needs “safeguard” protections from imports because there are so many coming into a country that it's harming the domestic industry. Trump is using Section 232 of the law, which is when the president declares there is a national security threat from the imports. What Bush did was a lot less severe and easier to defend under international law.

Under 232, “it’s a totally different magnitude of damage, not just to downstream industries, but to the system itself,” Bolten said.

--------------
--------------

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the non 1%er republicans should stick to racism and conspiracy theories, the world is far too complicated for these Simple People.

For the rest, I think Trump knows he needs a recession to guarantee he gets the boot, otherwise the oligarchs will pressure him to do things in his second term that he's not going to like.

The like is for the article.... not for your inane comments at the end.
 
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