Alternatives to Prop Firms?

Quote from mathew1659:


However I do agree with the track record comment. Trading records are everything from what I have found out, which I think is good.
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Well, again, it depends on whether you're applying as a new or experienced trader! From First NY's own website, "Whether you are a proven and experienced trader or a recent college graduate looking for an exceptional training program,...". From Schonfeld's website, "Schonfeld’s trading talent consists of both experienced traders from a variety of Wall Street firms to home-grown talent who are the product of Schonfeld’s unique training program." So, I'm not going to argue anymore over whether or not you NEED a track record to get into a quality prop firm because I have written evidence straight from the sources that you do not.

However, how to get into one of these prop firms isn't even my question here. My question is that for those who did NOT get in to one of these places, and have no interest in essentially paying for a job at one of the standard firms and becoming one of their customers, what is the next best alternative?
 
Quote from TsTrades:
My question is that for those who did NOT get in to one of these places, and have no interest in essentially paying for a job at one of the standard firms and becoming one of their customers, what is the next best alternative?
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Get a stake together, open an account, and start trading. You're not going to find a position at a firm that is 'something like portfolio management'.
 
Quote from traderNik:

Get a stake together, open an account, and start trading. You're not going to find a position at a firm that is 'something like portfolio management'.
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So, in other words, EVERYONE who becomes a trader starts off on his/her own? I'm pretty sure that's not true. As for nothing "like portfolio management," well, maybe you're right, but I'd like to hear from others as well. Maybe someone knows of something that you don't.
 
Quote from TsTrades:

So, in other words, EVERYONE who becomes a trader starts off on his/her own? I'm pretty sure that's not true. As for nothing "like portfolio management," well, maybe you're right, but I'd like to hear from others as well. Maybe someone knows of something that you don't.
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The impression I get from your posts is that whenever anyone tells you something that's not what you want to hear, you tell them that they're wrong. This is a really bad sign. Mr. Market is going to be doing that all the time.

There are quite a few ways to break into trading. On your own, through a prop or pro shop, as a runner at an exchange, working for an iBank or some other non-trading related financial services firm and making a connection, as an assistant on the trading floor of a bank, etc etc.

You have no money and you want to break into trading. That limits your options. A lot. You live in the centre of the financial Universe. If you don't have the academic status to gain a position at a pro firm or at one of the Wall Street firms, what other options are there for you? You're telling me you're 'pretty sure' I'm wrong. When you figure out the answer, make sure to let all of us know.

I notice you won't answer the simple question I asked. Why not just get a stake together and start trading? Build a record and run with it. If you can.
 
Quote from traderNik:

The impression I get from your posts is that whenever anyone tells you something that's not what you want to hear, you tell them that they're wrong. This is a really bad sign. Mr. Market is going to be doing that all the time.
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No, Nik, it's not that it's what I don't want to here. It's what I know to be not true. Several people told me that in order to get into one of these firms you need a track record. I then posted ACTUAL TEXTUAL EVIDENCE taken right from the firms' websites themselves stating that they take people without track records. So, I'm going to throw your argument right back at you. As a trader, you're supposed to be in tune with what is actually happening at any given time (basically, reality), and not your preconceived notions. Some of you want to adhere to your preconceived notion that you need a track record to get into one of these firms, even though I've made it evident (that is, presented reality in the form of quotes from their websites) that you don't.

Quote from traderNik:

There are quite a few ways to break into trading. On your own, through a prop or pro shop, as a runner at an exchange, working for an iBank or some other non-trading related financial services firm and making a connection, as an assistant on the trading floor of a bank, etc etc.
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. It's still vague, but at least you're not just pontificating now.

Quote from traderNik:

I notice you won't answer the simple question I asked. Why not just get a stake together and start trading? Build a record and run with it. If you can.
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I personally think that there are some things that one can teach oneself on one's own, and some things that one can't. I think trading is one skill in which it is, at the very least, extremely helpful to work in a more structured environment, and, yes, receive some serious training. I mean, why would First NY train people for 18-24 months if one could just as easily learn on one's own? Why waste their time and effort? And I've heard some traders say that their success wouldn't have been possible without a mentor. Or, at least, it would have taken MUCH longer. So, maybe that's why I would strongly prefer not to do it the way you're suggesting. While maybe I COULD learn it that way, a firm would likely very substantially cut down on the learning curve. Hope that answers your questions.
 
Quote from TsTrades:
I personally think that...
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Clearly you know more about this than I do. Your turning my question around on me was a stroke of genius. I'd wish you good luck, but I don't think it's a matter of luck with you.

On Ignore.
 
Well, Nik, obviously you have some kind of chip on your shoulder. I don't know why, but I certainly have my theories.

Honestly, people, this is like I'm asking the question, "I didn't get into any Ivy League school. What are the next best alternatives?" and getting responses like "There are no alternatives. If you couldn't get into an Ivy League school, what makes you think you'll get in anywhere else? Skip college and go get a job."

Come... on...
 
Quote from TsTrades:

Okay, well, then I do appreciate your feedback, even though it's not what I'm looking for. Just for the record, not to sound arrogant or anything, I'm 32, went to a 4-year college that most people consider fairly elite, and have an MBA in finance (with a 4.0 GPA in my finance courses). So, I should have some credibility when looking for such an opportunity, even if not a track record of trading success.
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You should be able to get a decent job at a major bank with those credentials -- save up, study lots of trading techniques and start trading in another 4 years.....
 
firms don't focus on swing trading for obvious reasons.
prop trading is considered to be a negative when looking for another position.
 
Quote from TsTrades:

Well, Nik, obviously you have some kind of chip on your shoulder. I don't know why, but I certainly have my theories.

Honestly, people, this is like I'm asking the question, "I didn't get into any Ivy League school. What are the next best alternatives?" and getting responses like "There are no alternatives. If you couldn't get into an Ivy League school, what makes you think you'll get in anywhere else? Skip college and go get a job."

Come... on...
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I'll try to offer you some help. I've worked in both NY and Chicago. I know a lot of guys in the prop world in both cities. I hate to say this, but you are shit out of luck. Guys in their 30's are pretty much damaged goods without a track record.

Yes I know what the firm's websites say. They could get sued for age discrimination if they say anything else. The fact of the matter is, most prop firms want 22 year old guys to train with no bad habits any little to no knowledge of the industry. Once you have traded prop and failed, you are done for the most part unless you choose to keep funding your account. NY is the most hyper competitive place in the universe. Hell there are ex-goldman guys looking for paid trading gigs. You really think you have an edge on those guys?

Based on the history you have provided us, your only shot is to self finance and put together 12 good months. Now if you pull that off, it's a different ball game.

As for why firms are not looking for portfolio managers, look, it's about capital. When you hold over night positions you tie up capital and you are not generating cash flow to the firm. If the firm wanted portfolio managers they would just give their money to SAC. They don't need some 30 year old kid running a "book". Where is the edge in that. These firms are about making money each and every day, not sitting on long term risk.

On a side note, there are far more quality prop firms in Chicago then NY. NY is a sales town, not trading. But even in Chicago, getting a trading job in your 30's, I just don't see the risk to reward in that for the firm. Do you have any idea how many guys here are looking for trading jobs, and many of them have stellar track records.
 
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