"The real does not die, the unreal never lived." - Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. There is a lot of wisdom in what you write; if you remove "Christ" from your writing you are in alignment with many of the world's spiritual traditions. Particularly, Hinduism and Buddhism. But then Christianity's origins (through its old testament writings and early new testament writings that were added during the first couple of hundred years after Jesus died) are intertwined with the east as can be seen by attending any traditional Orthodox Liturgy.
All Atheist's End up In Hell
- Thread starter FortuneTeller
- Start date
"The real does not die, the unreal never lived." - Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. There is a lot of wisdom in what you write; if you remove "Christ" from your writing you are in alignment with many of the world's spiritual traditions. Particularly, Hinduism and Buddhism. But then Christianity's origins (through its old testament writings and early new testament writings that were added during the first couple of hundred years after Jesus died) are intertwined with the east as can be seen by attending any traditional Orthodox Liturgy.
If i recall, Nisargadatta, upon meeting his guru for the first time, was told straight up, without any chit chat, "You are not who you think you are". After three years of practice, he knew, with experience, at all times, just what that meant.
This reminds me of Jesus query amongst his followers, "Who do you say that I am?"
And if you asked him who he was, Jesus might say something like, "I AM".
The priests among the Jews, who didn't like him much, then accused him of blasphemy, for using language that only their god would use. To which Jesus would reply, "Assuredly i say to you, before Abraham was, I AM".
What Christians today don't realize, anymore than the Jewish priests realized back then, is that this phrase, "I AM", had been a standard mantra in a certain sect of Hinduism long before Jewish priests wrote their propaganda piece on scrolls of lambskin, borrowing from legends all around them at the time.
It is such a standard, and important mantra, that Nisargadatta titled a book, he called, "I AM THAT", wherein the first chapter is titled, "The sense of I AM".
This is all to suggest, even more to suggest, that Jesus understanding of his Self derived from the practice of some very ancient, BUT NOT JEWISH, states of mind, most notably emanating from an obscure sect of Hinduism called Advaita Vedanta, or better understood as Non-Dualism.
Who, or what you really are, is central to that state of mind, and would be why Nisargadatta was told, straight up, first thing, he was not who/what he thought he was, at the time he approached the guru. He only changed his name to Nisargadatta when he understood it.
Nothing in Judaism teaches anyone to question their manhood, or their womanhood, or their snakehood. Judaism proposes the advent of a Messiah. But as i've long noted, Jesus did not agree he was their Messiah. As "I AM", Jesus was much more than their mere Messiah, and would be a brand new kind of savior, saving something completely different from what Jews (and today's Christians) were trying to save, namely their nation-state and their personal individual sense of existence, which is not real existence, according to a non-dual state of mind.
While nothing in Judaism teaches anyone to meditate on existence apart from a body, everything about non-dual, or advaita vedanta versions of spiritual psychology moves all students toward the realization of existence as the Supreme Being, rendering every other identity nil, null, or nothing.
If all students are the Supreme Being (I call that "Christ", others call that "Brahman"), then as people, we all must be fraudulent versions of the supreme fraud upon our Self. This is basically what Jesus was teaching, especially when speaking of oneness, all coming (descending) from the same place, and all ascending back to the original place.
As a savior, Jesus' brand of psychology saves Christ from the fraudulent substitutes for Christ that suffer in hell due to mischaracterizations about the true Self.
Last edited:
I've heard similar interpretations of the range of Christian practices in the first couple of 100 years after Jesus died. The Nag Hammadi library of writings (that were excluded from the bible by the early church) and other historical sources show there were all kinds of different spiritual practices considered to be Christian-based; most of which were literally exterminated by Constantine and the early Catholic Church in order to control and consolidate political power through centering Christianity on external worship in the body of the church rather than more individualized internal meditative and contemplative techniques. If those early practices had continued Christianity today would be a lot more like the range of Hindu spiritual practices.
It certainly evolved, starting with Jesus' own followers and hangers on. The Nag Hammadi library, contained a "sayings Gospel" (Thomas') which is supposed to be just the beef, the unedited, unembellished quotes from Jesus (probably up to 30% were added later by partisans). These kinds of gospels were likely the first to circulate. By comparison you can see how stories and events were weaved into a few quotes from Jesus. By the time you get to Paul there are only one or two quotes from Jesus. No one can say that even his own followers understood him. The popular gospels, John for example, narrates how his disciples still didn't get it, up till the end, and were asking stupid questions right up to when he volunteered to be crucified.
The idea that any of his disciples finally understood anything at all depends on the Pentecost narrative, requiring us to believe they were pretty much in the dark until the Holy Ghost performed a mass enlightenment event. Personally i don't buy that. The first evolution of Jesus message was to frame it within a Jewish viewpoint. Paul himself complained of those "Judaizers" who twist everything about the gospel to fit within their own perspective. On the other hand, as far as i can tell, Paul was the chief among Judaizers, forcing square pegs into the round holes of Jewish literature, a legacy carried on by Christians today, who have an amazing ability to take any old Jewish prophet, and make him speak directly about Jesus.
The biggest error of this way was to make Jesus into the actual Passover sacrifice, and of course, to force the round message of Jesus into the still empty square hole of the Messiah narrative. This is how a non-dual, generally eastern emanating message became unrecognizable, buried under the weight of so much liturgical tradition. Twisted, the non-dual message has been made to serve duality, making the dream (physical phenomena) real. Once starting down this path, the religion had to keep evolving to keep up with all of the cognitive dissonance this narrative produces.
Of note is Origen, who, in attempting to resolve how Universal Salvation could be achievable, had to entertain a long time horizon, probably involving re-incarnation until every soul learned how to be saved. This would have been in line with Plato's thinking, prior to Jesus advent. Origen was fairly orthodox to begin with, but by the second council of Constantinople, in 553, was benched, and maybe even made out to be a heretic.
I'll need to check, but i believe it was about 553 when the idea of "one death, one judgement" replaced the idea of second chances through re-incarnation, spelling the end of the concept of Universal Salvation. That too would have been the time the concept of a fiery hell was greatly embellished, being the logical extension of the die-once-judged-once narrative. The logic of being judged after death presented a cognitive dissonance however, because how could you be alive to be judged after death? So they came up with the "second death" narrative, where you go to serve out your judgement. Still it presents cognitive dissonance because how could you still be alive to serve out your penalty?
Last edited:
That doesn't line up with the historical research that I've come across.
I'll post this again:
The book of 1 Thessalonians was written about 51 CE and was written by the Apostle Paul.
This means that it was written only 18 years after Jesus death and resurrection, assuming that took place in 33 AD.
What can the book of 1Thessalonians tell us about what people believed about Jesus?
Just from the first chapter, we see that in only 18 short years, the Christianity had spread, not only the Thessalonians, but Macedonia and Achaia. Later in the book it mentions Philippi and Athens.
Most importantly, note that the message in verse 10 says that Jesus is God's son, that He was raised from the dead, and that it is Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Chapter 2 shows Paul believed that he and the others that shared about Jesus with them did so with integrity. This is important, because it's not that Paul is declaring it to them, but saying that they knew this was true about these people.
Does this sound like it was "made up a century later and stitched into a yarn the best snake oil salesman would be proud of" as @themickey has told us it was?
This next verse (below) shows that they were imitating the churches in Judea. This is significant, because if their faith was in the same gospel of Jesus as the churches in Judea, then the resurrection of Jesus was widely believed in Judean churches. If this was written in 51 AD, then we have to realize that this means that Christians in Judea (Israel) were believing that Jesus rose from the dead long before 51 AD, putting it much, much closer to the time of the resurrection.
So much for @themickey's wild speculation that "3 generations later they made him out as a cult figure, complete with miracles."
Chapter 5 has another reference to Jesus rising from the dead:
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/god-is.359932/page-96#post-5528358
c. 51 CE. One of the earliest of the genuine Pauline epistles.[76]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
What can the book of 1Thessalonians tell us about what people believed about Jesus?
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace.
The Thessalonians' Faith and Example
2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. 6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace.
The Thessalonians' Faith and Example
2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. 6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Most importantly, note that the message in verse 10 says that Jesus is God's son, that He was raised from the dead, and that it is Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Chapter 2 shows Paul believed that he and the others that shared about Jesus with them did so with integrity. This is important, because it's not that Paul is declaring it to them, but saying that they knew this was true about these people.
Does this sound like it was "made up a century later and stitched into a yarn the best snake oil salesman would be proud of" as @themickey has told us it was?
9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.11 For you know how, like a father with his children,12 we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:9-12
1 Thessalonians 2:9-12
So much for @themickey's wild speculation that "3 generations later they made him out as a cult figure, complete with miracles."
14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea.
1 Thessalonians 2:14
1 Thessalonians 2:14
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Last edited:
It could also be foolish to end up in Hell.
The good news I received in my epiphany from "God" when I was 22 is that heaven and hell are just stories made up by humans; something that has also been reinforced by personal experience since then and historical biblical research more generally. The main message from my epiphany was that any genuine spiritual path practiced authentically can get you to enlightenment. Though the structure of today's Protestant Christianity makes it harder. Orthodox Christianity is probably the best Christian pathway at the moment that I know of. Personally, I have found Yoga/Buddhist meditation to be the best path for me.
I value pardon from sin and a relationship with God, which have eternal benefits, more than I value the temporary usefulness of a windmill.
erm yeah right!
You can afford to indulge yourself in surrendering human reasoning and personal integrity to all those extravagent self-important fantisies about sky daddy stuff along with idolizing that instrument of torture, because you already enjoy the useful and practical benefits things like turbines supply you with to survive comparatively worry free.
Be honest. If it were between worshipping a crucifx or choosing the useful practical benefits tech provides to survive and enjoy the comparitively worry free lifestyle it does, you'd really need be choosing more sensibly than your religious belief makes you sound.