Alexis Tsipras' "open letter" to German citizens

[volpunter]

and that by huge majority agreement of bank analysts, economists, and strategists is the most likely expected outcome I read. In that those calling for Europe's demise are by definition in the minority camp, of course they are entitled to their opinion...

...but I see no reason why Greek's exit should cause the EU to disintegrate.

There's also an alternate scenario where Greece leaves the Eurozone and the EU while the unions stay intact, after all, Greece is also a tiny part of EU. It's a test of sorts, before any of this the EMU didn't follow the rules set by themselves and there's where the problems started. As with anything, if there is no discipline, it fails.

Also, the subsidy system has to be scrapped or completely redesigned.
I know people who didn't do anything but wrote EU grant requests and made a nice living off of that, scamming the system with zero benefit to society. This is a €500 billion+ business across the EU.

Portugal dealt quite well with the issues and I think will come out much stronger in the upcoming decades. It's possible that Spain will also get their act together.

 

[volpunter]

That is entirely incorrect. The demanded reparations were beyond anything imaginable and could not be paid back NO MATTER HOW HARD GERMANS WORKED OR SAVED.

Do you see Greeks working hard and save? You see them embarking on austerity? You see them toiling? Does anyone in this room get the impression that they want to pay down any debt?

Think about the following for one second: Germany was confronted with huge reparation demands after WWII, the war ended in 1945. The German Democratic Republic was formed in 1949 and the first debt negotiation conference was formed in 1950 and the more major one in 1953. That was a full 5 and 8 years, respectively, when Germany worked hard to rebuild and restructure its country and economy. Of course it received a lot of help, full credit where its due! But the point here is that Germans toiled and worked their hearts out to make ends meet. Greeks just sit on their fat savage asses and do exactly this: NOTHING. Oh wait, I forget, they DEMAND. They sit and demand.

THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE

bt

You just made my point. Hitler came to power, partially because the Allies would not restructure or renegotiate the war debt.

We could do without a new greek style hitler arising from the ashes of Greece.

 

[d08]

That is entirely incorrect. The demanded reparations were beyond anything imaginable and could not be paid back NO MATTER HOW HARD GERMANS WORKED OR SAVED.

I think the comparison is between the reparations after WWI set by the treaty of Versailles.
Germany did certainly try as the treaty was signed in 1919, it took quite a bit of time until WWII started. Greece has tried for what, 6 months?
Greeks still have the superiority complex due to their ancient history and they simply don't want to repay their debts, despite it being perfectly achievable.

 

[volpunter]

my hunch is that the half-life of Syriza in power will be very short. No matter how you see it they are an extremist party and unless an extremists take on totalitarian powers they usually do not survive long. Nobody in the EU wants to seriously negotiate with them and if they really choose to default the domestic pain and hence blame will be unimaginable. The huge problem is that Syriza planted in people an illusion that they can "do" relatively well without "doing" much. So in the end they will be squeezed domestically and isolated internationally. That I believe is a highly likely outcome.

Do you pay your mortgage? I mean, based on your logic it's just another form of slavery and you should default. If you lie to the bank on your application and then refuse to pay, what do you think the bank does? In your view the bank here is at fault, for me the mortgage owner is clearly to blame.
The "troika" threw that money toward Greece with clear conditions and plans, with oversight and everything. It's just that the Greeks are refusing to honor the loan conditions.
Since Syriza came to power, the debt has increased, so I'm not sure how you can say they're trying to fix the situation. They're just planning to extort EU.
Time and time again the Greeks have proven that they can't manage their own finances, they're saying "this time it's different" but I don't buy it.

When talking about Greece benefiting from leaving EMU and/or EU, it's worth to consider that Greece is by far the largest per capita recipient of farm subsidies, Spain is a distant number two. Leaving the EU will definitely make the farmers unhappy as we are talking about billions in a relatively small country; Syriza's time in the government could be short in this scenario.

 

[volpunter]

I was aware that the comparison targeted reparations arising from WWI, admittedly I do not have much knowledge from my studies of how hard Germans worked after WWI and the treaty of Versailles. But I am pretty well versed with history from WWII and beyond and hence I looked at that. Purely time wise you are already correct a lot of time passed until 1939 and even if you subtract about 5-7 years during which German leaders realized that the reparation demands were unsatisfiable (meaning, could not ever be serviced regardless of goodwill) you still end up with plenty time and I would assume Germans did not just sit around and hold their hands open.

For Greeks, servicing the debt is 100% achievable, even paying down the debt is achievable under the condition that Greece manages to earn taxes again and that people start working harder. We do not need to use the ugly term "austerity" but essentially Greeks will have to work harder no matter what, whether within the EU or outside. Nobody will lend a hand to a liar twice or even three times. Greeks are pretty much on their own already now and they only isolate themselves further from those who still wanted to assist them.

I think the comparison is between the reparations after WWI set by the treaty of Versailles.
Germany did certainly try as the treaty was signed in 1919, it took quite a bit of time until WWII started. Greece has tried for what, 6 months?
Greeks still have the superiority complex due to their ancient history and they simply don't want to repay their debts, despite it being perfectly achievable.

 

[volpunter]

Please, anyone, tell me how you would feel if your own representatives or president was dealt with in similar ways as can be seen in this video (no tie, casual shirt not even tugged into the pants, disrespectful gestures, and looks like a pimp; Absolutely disgraceful). Honestly, imagine you are US citizen and shot hundreds and billions into Mexico, and they had the same attitudes towards you as Greeks towards Europe.

Here the perfect header for the video: Thug life Mediterranean style

 

[Visaria]

Trust me, comparing Germany to Greece is laughable at best.
The threats by Syriza of Greece becoming the next military threat cannot be taken seriously.
The worst thing that can happen is the right wingers in Greece killing a few immigrants; they can't possibly try anything against Turkey, not that they would as Greeks like the easy life - they wouldn't have the discipline to invade anyone.

plenty of small countries are threats to bigger ones.

there's a saying: fear the man who has nothing to lose, maybe this can be applied to countries too?

 

[Visaria]

The reality is of course that greece may ultimately go down in ruins, but before it does so, germany (and the rest of the eurozone) will have much of its face smashed in.

It's a bit like the Rocky movie, Rocky, the underdog, ultimately lost the match, but the other guy was given one hell of a beating.

 

[d08]

Sheesh, now the ECB has to reprint all the Euro bills...

 

[alexandert]

There are always 2 enities in a bad load: a Bank and a customer.
The unfortunate part of a human nature is to cheat. That is why when someone goes to ATM machine and types in a number, banks verify if the balance is sufficient before dispensing the money. The same applies to a loan.There is much more weight on a Bank to insure validity of it. When Banks become rresponsible like it happened recently in Real estate markets a disaster happens. So yes the greatest responsibility is on a Bank or in that case EU.
I do not think that Greese is "extorting" money. They just try to deal with the bancrapsy. Unless you call all bancrapsies an extortion.