Alexis Tsipras' "open letter" to German citizens

[Humpy]

What a mess !!
The lawyers will be having a " Field Day " for years to come.

Could be the words of a pop song

Where did all those billions go ? Long time passing.

 

[volpunter]

Let all this post election flirt and kissing subside and let's see what this guy really does once economic reality sets in. I think even the laziest Greek is not dumb: They know full well how much they benefit from being part of the EU bulldozer. Leaving leaves them with less debt but a future that catapults them back at least a century.

 

[d08]

You are actually right, if I said Greece was the last country to introduce democratic principles in Western Europe then I stand corrected, thank you.

Yes, both Greece and Spain (well, also Portugal and a number other Southern European countries) benefited from their joining the EU tremendously. Saying Germany benefited the most or even equally because of an artificially cheap Euro is a slap in the face; its outright preposterous given the fact what hardships the average German consumers had to endure when the euro was introduced and many items were in that conversion priced 20-30, sometimes 50 percent higher. Also, at the exchange rates we have witnessed between Deutsche Mark crosses and Euro crosses one can hardly speak of the Euro as being artificially cheap. All of Europe has shopped German products for decades before the introduction of the Euro and that also did not drive the Mark into astronomical spheres. Suggesting that Germany greatly benefited from a "cheap" Euro are hence without factual basis and rational.

Greece and Spain have benefited immensely from joining the EU, no doubt about that. From the huge farming subsidies (particularly Greece) to exporting the same subsidized goods to every corner of the EU (Spain), outside the EU they'd be at the mercy of EU bureaucrats, just like Northern Africa with their produce.
Germans export their goods everywhere, so to say that Greeks bought huge amounts of German goods is true but it's also true for US, Russia, China, Brazil - so the statement is misleading.

 

[Humpy]

This whole mess just emphasises the wide gap between a political dream and the reality of the markets imho.
The Brussell sprouts must be scratching their heads now for a solution !! The debacle of corruption and incompetence is now showing publicly. The EU is badly in need of reform and needs to catch the crooks pocketing extra money from scams, frauds etc.

 

[volpunter]

yes agree, but this fact does not itself refute the claim by some that Germany reaped huge benefits due to an "artificially weak euro". But a hard and honest look at Germany's exports and the value of the Deutschmark (trade balance weighted as basket as well as also via individual crosses) before the introduction and then after (after of course via the euro and its crosses or euro basket if one wants) does refute suggestions that Germany's economy benefitted much from the euro valuation. In fact most bank analysts today concede that the euro was not undervalued when it was introduced and also that the conversion fix DM <-> Euro was not set at a rate that gave Germany any unfair advantage whatsoever.

Greece and Spain have benefited immensely from joining the EU, no doubt about that. From the huge farming subsidies (particularly Greece) to exporting the same subsidized goods to every corner of the EU (Spain), outside the EU they'd be at the mercy of EU bureaucrats, just like Northern Africa with their produce.
Germans export their goods everywhere, so to say that Greeks bought huge amounts of German goods is true but it's also true for US, Russia, China, Brazil - so the statement is misleading.

 

[volpunter]

I would certainly not single out Europe here. The UK is not? London is Europe's breeding ground of muslim extremists, it looks on as ex spies get literally terminated with radioactive substances in the heart of the city, it houses all sorts of macabre characters from Russia, China, and the middle East. So much to the political will to clean house in the UK.

Or how about the US? Koch Brothers mean anything to you? Or the whole election campaign financing debacle? The executive and legislative branches have entirely sold out to the highest financial bidders. Fuck the constitution I would say (and I dare to say so into the face of any American, because most will wholeheartedly agree when I explain what I mean with that).

In that sense, I prefer to be a European "citizen", represented on the surface by some illiterate bureaucrats but in reality governed and represented by some who actually still follow true principles. For instance, I think it is very fair to say that Merkel is one of the most intelligent heads of state not just in our times but even over the past 50 years and not only in Germany but worldwide. While neither she is perfect of course, but she does not sell out to the Chinese and others with big wallets like her British colleagues did and do. I laud that and have respect for that. Of course does she after all still represent Germany more than she does represent Europe and hence her interests are more aligned with the ones of Germany than with Greece (lol).

Let's not forget that aside all the funny stories coming out of Brussels important policies are still formed and pushed by individual heads of state and their administration. And when I look at the leaders in France, Germany, Scandinavia, Holland, then I would say that you may find it hard to find equally competent head of states in the US, UK, Australia, and multiple other nations, at least you would have to look hard. With competent I mean to represent in the literal meaning of the word, to be civil servants to its people rather than bedding with those that offer financial rewards at the expense of the people at large. (in that sense I would classify the US as one of the most corrupt countries).

We often whine and ridicule the EU and its sometimes hilarious slips but it remains a grand experiment, something that has never been attempted on such scale in human history before. Mistakes are allowed in experiments I would say. But after everything is said and done, let's agree that the Euro has not broken down, something so many speculated would happen much earlier; in fact the Euro broke the neck and wallets of many hedge funds that betted against it and lost. Nor has the EU as unified body lost any of its political reputation, quite to the contrary, the EU has grown into a powerful negotiation partner/adversary (?) of the US, Asia (China, Japan), and Russia while still insisting on the fact that life is not all about money but also about human rights and equal opportunities. Where the UK and US have to some degrees conceded ethical basic hard lines to China, Russia, .... the EU stands on relatively solid grounds in many corners of the human rights and ethics arena. ("Equal opportunities" has turned out to be a mere catch phrase in the US, nothing could be further from the truth in today's times, while I would say Germany is maybe one of the countries in the world where anyone, from whatever background, whatever upbringing, whatever financial status, can attend the same universities than everyone else and can get the same (or at least almost same) opportunities in life.)

In summary, so far so good, the ECB is alive and kicking, the EU takes a solid stance towards Russia, and China among others. But I guess one can only say so after many years and having grown very ironic and cynical about world of politics and economics.

This whole mess just emphasises the wide gap between a political dream and the reality of the markets imho.
The Brussell sprouts must be scratching their heads now for a solution !! The debacle of corruption and incompetence is now showing publicly. The EU is badly in need of reform and needs to catch the crooks pocketing extra money from scams, frauds etc.

 

[volpunter]

And here the summary of it all:

The Greek anecdotes:

And here the true Greek:

Enjoy ;-)

 

[Tsing Tao]

Lol, cheap holiday deals? You clearly have zero idea what you are talking about, have you ever been to Greece? If you had travelled to any of the islands and attempted to savor a seafood meal at any of the local restaurants you would know that they charge 2-3 times more for local fish than you would pay at a 5 star resort in the Caribbean. Guess why: Because the locals have zero idea how Econ 101 works. For them the logic goes like this: Less tourists -> Raise prices to make up for lost revenue. Lol. Good luck with that. Certainly German tourists will avoid.

I've been to Greece numerous times when I lived for several years in Eastern Europe. My wife and I were engaged there. You obviously are the know-all on everything that is Greece, so there's little point in discussing anything with you. Between that and your obvious hatred for Greeks, there's not going to be anything gained in an interchange with you.

Have a great day.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Greece is the only country in Europe that costed us so much money and where you can find these things:

• Nobody pays in metro in Athene. They should but there is no control. But this is not important because Europe paid the whole metro for the Olympic Games 2004.

• For more than 600 profession general rule is retirement at 50. Pension is 95% of last salary.

• On a population of 12 million only 5000 declare to have an income of more than 100.000 euro. But 60.000 Greek families have investment for at least 1 million euro.

• In Kifissia only 300 people declare to have a swimming pool (on which they have to pay taxes). But in reality more than 20.000 swimming pools are located in Kifissia.

• In 2012 1.400 dead people still received pension. Total pension fraud is over 64 million euro.

• Tsochadzopoulos, ex minister for Pasok in Greece, is now in prison for bribery in excess of 160 million euro because Europe insisted on it.

• 121 person were arrested for fiscal fraud because Europe insisted on it. They declared almost no income but they had bank accounts in other countries with amounts between 20 and 50 million euro.

• In 2011 42 milliard euro taxes were not paid by Greek taxpayers.

• On the island Zakynthos 650 inhabitants pretended to be blind and cashed in money. 600 of them were not blind at all.

I was in Russia too. Very corrupt country too. But did not cost over 200 milliard euro to the European taxpayers.

And the deficit from Greece when they applied for membership was not 3% but close to 15%!!! That is a world of difference. Greece should be in the top of the list if you take the REAL deficit and not the deficit the Greeks were talking about.

None of this is relevant. I never said the Greeks weren't corrupt. What I said is that they will never be able to repay the debt lent to them, and it should never have been lent. End of story.

 

[Tsing Tao]

But can you please provide factual backup why the loans cannot be repaid?

I did so already in the Mish post. But you aren't interested in debating (and probably don't even read the posts I make outside of the first line), just telling me "how it is". Let me know if you change your mind about wanting to discuss the subject instead of jumping all over me for every comment I make.