Alexis Tsipras' "open letter" to German citizens

[volpunter]

with all due respect but you are not that important. Why do you repeat I claim what you say or said? You asked me word-for-word "Did someone force Germany to lend the money? Whose idea was it for two bailouts?" and I answered you with the facts. So here it is again, the answer to your question:

The bailouts were decided by the 27 member states of the EU as far as I remember and subsequently the EFSF was created. So yes, the majority decided on the bailout funds, including Germany, and Germany was the driving force behind combining austerity measures with any funding given. The money was merely motivation to keep the Greeks on working on structural reforms.

---

And wtf are you talking about Troika? I said the EFSF was created out of which Greece received funding. (http://www.efsf.europa.eu/about/index.htm). Greece is mentioned by word on their website. And stop knitpicking on terminology, call it ESM now if that gets you off. Fact remains. Greece needed funding, they were completely unable to issue new debt at the rates the market demanded. Next, Greece wanted the money and took it wholeheartedly. This joker can't now come along and labaste the evil Krauts for daring to cover the Greek peninsula with green blow.

Again, I don't remember saying anything of the sort. I get that you like to tell me what I'm saying and thinking, but let me reiterate my position - debt problems cannot be solved with more debt.

And last I remember, the "Troika" didn't include Greece. Don't kid yourself. The Germans were right there with those bailouts. The people might not have been, but Mutti sure was.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Because you keep saying that I made a statement or telling me what I'm hoping for. Go back and read your own posts!

Anyway, you said you were against repeating the same mistakes of 2008, and that we should let those who are bankrupt fail. I agree. So, apparently does Tsipras. What you seem to be furious about is that Tsipras should stand by previous agreements and that Greece owes this money. I don't think anyone can argue they don't. Tsipras is saying there's no way to repay it, because the math is impossible.

You seem to be very defensive for Germany's point, but I'm just reminding you that it was their choice to lend the money. They could have refused. Instead, they agreed to lend money, and then agreed to lend it again when the first bailout wasn't enough. Then, they agreed a third time and was ready to put more money out when Tsipras's party came to power. Now, of course, that is on hold.

At the end of the day, who is at fault for a bad loan? The party that cannot or will not pay it back or the party that loaned out an unpayable loan in the first place? I would argue that they both are.

 

[volpunter]

Sure, you choose a or b. Germany and the EU chose to offer Greece money in exchange for the implementation of austerity measures. Greece decided to accept and signed an agreement. They could have refused to do so if they did not like the terms or if they did not urgently need the money (the claim that they were basically forced to take funds is simply ludicrous).

But you cant happily take the money, consume it all, do the absolute minimum in terms of structural change, lie about austerity measure progress, then turn around and tell those who coughed up money for you to "go, fuck yourself". Of course you can try that but you risk getting thrown out of the club which is precisely what Greece is risking right now. The times when German corporates' and banks' survival hinged on the EU or Germany bailing out Greece is long over. A lot of risk exposure has been entirely eliminated or drastically reduced. Imho Greece is playing with fire here and seriously pisses off their European neighbors. At some point either Greece gets thrown out or the German taxpayer pulls the plug and possibly even pulls out of the Euro altogether. Both will have severe consequences for the average Helenian, much more drastic than for Germany.

Because you keep saying that I made a statement or telling me what I'm hoping for. Go back and read your own posts!

Anyway, you said you were against repeating the same mistakes of 2008, and that we should let those who are bankrupt fail. I agree. So, apparently does Tsipras. What you seem to be furious about is that Tsipras should stand by previous agreements and that Greece owes this money. I don't think anyone can argue they don't. Tsipras is saying there's no way to repay it, because the math is impossible.

You seem to be very defensive for Germany's point, but I'm just reminding you that it was their choice to lend the money. They could have refused. Instead, they agreed to lend money, and then agreed to lend it again when the first bailout wasn't enough. Then, they agreed a third time and was ready to put more money out when Tsipras's party came to power. Now, of course, that is on hold.

 

[volpunter]

and no, you are dead wrong. At least in legal and financial terms. A loan agreement is an agreement to which BOTH PARTIES are bound to. The party who violates the terms is at fault, simple as that. I do not even know why we argue about this.

Because you keep saying that I made a statement or telling me what I'm hoping for. Go back and read your own posts!

Anyway, you said you were against repeating the same mistakes of 2008, and that we should let those who are bankrupt fail. I agree. So, apparently does Tsipras. What you seem to be furious about is that Tsipras should stand by previous agreements and that Greece owes this money. I don't think anyone can argue they don't. Tsipras is saying there's no way to repay it, because the math is impossible.

You seem to be very defensive for Germany's point, but I'm just reminding you that it was their choice to lend the money. They could have refused. Instead, they agreed to lend money, and then agreed to lend it again when the first bailout wasn't enough. Then, they agreed a third time and was ready to put more money out when Tsipras's party came to power. Now, of course, that is on hold.

At the end of the day, who is at fault for a bad loan? The party that cannot or will not pay it back or the party that loaned out an unpayable loan in the first place? I would argue that they both are.

 

[i am nobody]

Where I live they say:

• Socialists only have a problem the day they run out of other people's money.
• Socialist like to go shopping at the supermarket, but of course without paying.
• The quickest way to destroy wealth is installing a socialist government.

 

[volpunter]

And by the same token, nothing builds wealth faster and more efficiently than letting 1.2 billion people lose after keeping them for decades in socialist/communist handcuffs. At least the Chinese did not suck dry others' wealth they depleted their own resources before they made a 180. Greece here is an entirely different beast, but I said what I wanted to say.

Where I live they say:

• Socialists only have a problem the day they run out of other people's money.
• Socialist like to go shopping at the supermarket, but of course without paying.
• The quickest way to destroy wealth is installing a socialist government.

 

[i am nobody]

There are thousands of examples of how Greeks, as well poor as rich ones, evaded all kind of taxes.

1. Nobody pays in metro in Athene. They should but there is no control. But this is not important because Europe paid the whole metro for the Olympic Games 2004.
2. For more than 600 profession general rule is retirement at 50. Pension is 95% of last salary.
3. On a population of 12 million only 5000 declare to have an income of more than 100.000 euro. But 60.000 Greek families have investment for at least 1 million euro.
4. In Kifissia only 300 people declare to have a swimming pool (on which they have to pay taxes). But in reality more than 20.000 swimming pools are located in Kifissia.
5. In 2012 1.400 dead people still received pension. Total pension fraud is over 64 million euro.
6. Tsochadzopoulos, ex minister for Pasok in Greece, is now in prison for bribery in excess of 160 million euro because Europe insisted on it.
7. 121 person were arrested for fiscal fraud because Europe insisted on it. They declared almost no income but they had bank accounts in other countries with amounts between 20 and 50 million euro.
8. In 2011 42 milliard euro taxes were not paid by Greek taxpayers.
9. On the island Zakynthos 650 inhabitants pretended to be blind and cashed in money. 600 of them were not blind at all.

And now Europe should pay?

 

[Tsing Tao]

and no, you are dead wrong. At least in legal and financial terms. A loan agreement is an agreement to which BOTH PARTIES are bound to. The party who violates the terms is at fault, simple as that. I do not even know why we argue about this.

I understand the legal aspect about it. But a creditor that lends to someone they know cannot pay back the loan has no one but themselves to blame. I don't know why we argue this anyway.

If I give a $10,000 loan to a homeless beggar who swears that he is going to repay me in a month, it's it purely the beggar's fault when he doesn't?

 

[Tsing Tao]

And now Europe should pay?

Europe already paid. They gave two bailouts. What they should have done is math and realized there was no way that debt would be repaid.

 

[i am nobody]

Europe already paid. They gave two bailouts. What they should have done is math and realized there was no way that debt would be repaid.

Yes, but now Greece wants Europe to write off a big chunk of the money they gave. So Greece does not want to pay back.
Politicians and math was always a bad combination. The best combination is politicians and corruption. That one works everywhere.