Alexis Tsipras' "open letter" to German citizens

well then you pretty much negate all advances in society that came about via struggles, demonstrations, revolutions, and protests. I respect your opinion but do not agree with it.

So, peaceful demonstrations are not ok in your book but violent breakups of demonstrations that involve teargas and beatings are ok? That is pretty bizarre in my book. Especially given that you are possibly a Frenchman, the citizen of a country where tires are burned on highways each time wage negotiations break down or when there is something to complain about things get violent. I think the protests in HK have been among the most civil, peaceful in the world, nowhere else will you see demonstrators that display there displeasure more peacefully and more patiently. I have to laugh if you take issue with the protests because your short trip from home to work lasted 5 more minutes in the morning. And I have not heard of any store closures as result of protests. Maybe you are reading the wrong propaganda material. I participated in the candle vigil to commemorate the Tianmen Square massacre and I showed up a few times at Admiralty to demonstrate my agreement with the lack of democracy in the current way city officials are elected. I respect you find all the current practices ok but saying the protests harmed the city more than it benefitted it is spitting not only into the face of all those who stood up for democracy but is in stark contrast with most academics, political scientists, and observers, including those who were against the protests. The huge majority concluded that the youth standing up for their democratic rights was a good thing.

And sure, shop keepers can open whatever shops they please. I am not blaming shop keepers. I am blaming a perverted travel policy in Hong Kong that grants more rights and caters more to PRC visitors than it cares about its own citizens. That I find odd. Minimum wage here (on which more than 30% in this city depend on) stands at 30HKD, less than 4 USD and NOTHING is done about it. To the contrary: The HK government allows free wheeling and dealing by property tycoons to develop almost only luxury residences while affordable housing to the masses is denied and just never happens. The local government is supposed to act in the best interest of its citizens but they act in the best interest of PRC visitors and investors. That is fundamentally wrong if you ask me.

You like Shenzhen and Macao better? Not sure what Shenzhen has to offer other than hazardous pollution levels and prostitution wherever you set foot to. Same with Macao. And HK is packed because of PRC tourists and half of PRC's investor base roaming the city, the exact reasons that you seemed to support in your previous posts. Can you please elaborate, because you currently sound very contradictory.Causeway Bay and Kowloon are FLOODED (almost occupied) by PRC visitors to such a degree that you can hardly walk around in the weekends. Not one single protester is currently be seen anywhere. What the heck are you talking about?

luisHK said:
Jeez we could hardly have more opposing opinions.
Not going through all the points but blocking roads to express one's discontent is not ok in my book, breaking heads or detaining the ones who block the road to restaure traffic is OK.
Shopkeepers are free to sell the products they find most profitable, if the product is legal, feel free to open a shop selling organic tomatoes in Kowloon or Tin Hau. Protesters attacked shoppers indiscriminately, forced shops to close. They had no idea wether the chinese tourists were parralel traders or shopping for themselves and their family (and if they intended to resell the goods they bought it didn't make the disruption any more legitimate). Honkies are taking their frustration on mainland chinese, it's not new but it's become more agressive.
I find HK unbearably packed and it's no longer a financial paradise which took away a lot of its charm, so I spend as little time as possible there (Singapore, Taiwan, Macau are much more pleasant destinations in the area, Shenzhen is kindda better also, if one speaks mandarine or at least cantonese, but I sure hope the HK authorities take a harder stance on protesters, and HK pays its behaviour with a slower economic growth. Japan, Korea, and a bunch of other countries are making it easier for mainlanders to come and spend money there rather than in HK, and that's what chinese have started doing.
More...
 
Last edited:
Peaceful protesters :

http://www.chinasmack.com/2015/pict...ers-besiege-and-harass-mainland-tourists.html
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/01/hong-kong-anti-china-protesters-scuffle-with-cops

You forgot to mention that in France, workers taking executives hostages is fine as well, if I agreed about the way the government deals with labour unions there, I'd be probably living in Paris 8th - surrounded by rich arabs in fancy cars and a bunch of well off people from other origins as well, including many locals. But unless they take a harder stance against public disruptions and lower the taxes, it's unlikely. I'd take HK government over french government anyday, pre or post handover.
30hkd an hour is very little indeed, even with subsidised accomodation. I'm still opposed to minimum wage. Life in HK is harsh, and many people seem very edgy and frustrated. Not a reason for me to empathise with them when they pick on increasingly better off mainlanders.
Never said the demonstrations downtown go on, they seem to have turned (with far less demonstrators) to the New Territories.
Yes lots of mainlanders in HK, and i wouldn't be surprised restrictions are applied to mainland visitors following the unrest. it's actually nicer to walk in several areas in Shenzhen than in HK, I'm not convinced (to say the least ) you are very familiar with SZ. Far from a perfect city still.
 
Last edited:
I think we are mixing up things here: I was talking about peaceful protesters during the "Occupy Central" protests. And I agreed there were scuffles during the anti-parallel trading protests and I agreed violence is not the solution but I think we can both agree that even the latest protests are mainly peaceful in nature.

HK people do not pick on mainlanders due to varying fortunes. Let's be realistic here: The parallel traders and tourists who come here are also at the middle to lower end of the ladder, else would you travel to HK to buy milk powder, even if you had to pay 50% more in China, if you counted yourself to the middle or newly-rich class? I highly doubt that. Protests are not taking place because of some one showing up who seems wealthier, they take place because PRCs are starting to seriously damage the livelihood of the local population. Please name me a few other reasons why HK is the most expensive place on earth to live on if it was not for mainlanders who snapped up real estate as if there was no tomorrow? Some estates are 2/3 empty because all the units just sit there for investment purposes, while hundreds of thousands of locals are cramped with 4-6 people into 1 bed room cages. The problem lies with the fact that affordable housing is not made available. You can hardly argue that HK locals are not hard working and doing their best to make a living. Young locals who do not work in investment banking or legal services have lost any and all ability to afford a place of the own. Something just does not seem right about this picture.

The two protests are entirely segregated, separate events, organized for different purposes, run by different organizations and supported by different people. If you fail to see that then I am not sure you are the most qualified to comment on this issue.

And no, I am not familiar with Shenzhen. The 4-5 times I have been there I would hardly see the sky for air pollution, a trip to Baoan airport was a horror trip, driving on the highway in between the technology manufacturing plants stank as if plastics and other chemicals were burnt in the open, an arrival in the evening at any of the land-crossings between HK<-> Shenzhen makes you run right into the hands of touts, scammers, pickpockets, and massage girls (aka prostitutes). Food for anyone looking western is immediately marked up wherever you go. Shekou possibly be the only place an average Westerner would feel safe and comfortable. So, please inform me where the to-go places in Shenzhen are I am curious, aside from Shekou and Oct Bay.




luisHK said:
Peaceful protesters :

http://www.chinasmack.com/2015/pict...ers-besiege-and-harass-mainland-tourists.html
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/01/hong-kong-anti-china-protesters-scuffle-with-cops

You forgot to mention that in France, workers taking executives hostages is fine as well, if I agreed about the way the government deals with labour unions there, I'd be probably living in Paris 8th - surrounded by rich arabs in fancy cars and a bunch of well off people from other origins as well, including many locals. But unless they take a harder stance against public disruptions and lower the taxes, it's unlikely. I'd take HK government over french government anyday, pre or post handover.
30hkd an hour is very little indeed, even with subsidised accomodation. I'm still opposed to minimum wage. Life in HK is harsh, and many people seem very edgy and frustrated. Not a reason for me to empathise with them when they pick on increasingly better off mainlanders.
Never said the demonstrations downtown go on, they seem to have turned (with far less demonstrators) to the New Territories.
Yes lots of mainlanders in HK, and i wouldn't be surprised restrictions are applied to mainland visitors following the unrest. it's actually nicer to walk in several areas in Shenzhen than in HK, I'm not convinced (to say the least ) you are very familiar with SZ. Far from a perfect city still.
More...
 
volpunter said:
HK people do not pick on mainlanders due to varying fortunes. Let's be realistic here: The parallel traders and tourists who come here are also at the middle to lower end of the ladder, else would you travel to HK to buy milk powder, even if you had to pay 50% more in China, if you counted yourself to the middle or newly-rich class? I highly doubt that. Protests are not taking place because of some one showing up who seems wealthier, they take place because PRCs are starting to seriously damage the livelihood of the local population. Please name me a few other reasons why HK is the most expensive place on earth to live on if it was not for mainlanders who snapped up real estate as if there was no tomorrow? Some estates are 2/3 empty because all the units just sit there for investment purposes, while hundreds of thousands of locals are cramped with 4-6 people into 1 bed room cages. The problem lies with the fact that affordable housing is not made available. You can hardly argue that HK locals are not hard working and doing their best to make a living. Young locals who do not work in investment banking or legal services have lost any and all ability to afford a place of the own. Something just does not seem right about this picture.
More...

Well, obviously the chinese snapping up real estate in HK aren't the ones doing the trip to save 100 bucks on a few items, but products in HK are not only cheaper, they are also more diverse and reputed safer. Plenty of chinese travel to HK to shop for their own consumption rather than for parralel trading. The wealthier chinese (snapping real estate, which I also feel has reached prohibitive prices in HK) are a reason of the resentment in Hk, and the fact Hongkies can't objectively look down at the mainland anymore as a poor developping country when they can't match it anymore financially, plus are getting more and more dominated by it is fuelling resentment.

I typed "chinese" yesterday on youtube and among the first links were several from HK posters mocking mainlanders. Again I remember disdain in HK towards mainlanders several years ago but it has turned into animosity.

As of SZ, OCT bay (as in the link above) is the nicest place imo at the moment, than Seaworld in Shekou and the seashore, with (tens of ?) kms of largely green promenade, you can rent then ride a bycicle along it. I know quite a few people hike on the hills of Shekou but I'm no better hiker when in SZ than when in HK, and can't comment. There are actually a few hookers (at night only) in Seaworld, I find them shocking but only because they are very old. It's a bit frustrating in Shenzhen, most expats look broke ( many are on not so comfy expat packages) compared to the local entrepreneurs and local young girls don't care much for the foreigners ( I didn't investigate the issue much, but rich locals seem to have access to much cuter mistresses). Westerners seem more popular in Taipei.

If you have a mainland visa, you can catch a ferry to Shekou one day from the Macau Ferry Terminal in Sheung Wan and walk to Seaworld and around Shekou from there. It's a 1 hour ferry ride and can make for a pleasant day or week end trip.

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/...VLBQx.?p=seaworld+shekou&fr=moz35&fr2=piv-web

But if you are interested in the more urban part of SZ, better than Lowu, check Futian, which is more upmarket (around the Convention center ).
 
Last edited:
But yes driving in SZ can feel like hell, especially in the poorer areas, i take a crossborder cab sometimes and it's a relief when we reach HK roads
 
Also much better to go to SZ with private car or the ferry, the Lowu border, the one you reach by train, is quite messy indeed although I'm not sure the mix of touts/prostitutes/pickpockets is of actuality.
 
* From my plenty HK friends I cannot gather any anti Chinese sentiment. They are pretty busy with their own lives in HK and they just want a fairer representation in government. I cannot second what you are saying, I do not feel anyone is jealously looking at the increasing living standards in China.

* Sure, you see mocking of Mainland visitors, but mostly of those who do not obey civil and social norms, who pee and spit on streets, who jump queues. Why do you think tourist destinations all over the world now put signs up in simplified Chinese urging mainland tourists not to pee into sinks, not to wash their feet in sinks, not to pee on streets, not to smoke wherever it pleases them. HK has maybe been overdosed with bad manners by mainlanders and so I do understand the sentiment by some. But most people express their sentiment in non violent ways, that is for sure.

* Thanks for the tips, though Sea World what I would have done as teenager, and Shekou has a few restaurants and not much else, OCT bay I cannot comment on but so far its very very hard to justify a trip out there even after hearing about your recommendations. Though I appreciate them. Thanks for sharing.




luisHK said:
Well, obviously the chinese snapping up real estate in HK aren't the ones doing the trip to save 100 bucks on a few items, but products in HK are not only cheaper, they are also more diverse and reputed safer. Plenty of chinese travel to HK to shop for their own consumption. The wealthier chinese (snapping real estate, which I also feel has reached prohibitive prices in HK) are a reason of the resentment in Hk, and the fact Hongkies can't objectively look down at the mainland anymore as a poor developping country when they can't match it anymore financially, plus are getting more and more dominated by it is fuelling resentment.

I typed "chinese" yesterday on youtube and among the first links were several from HK posters mocking mainlanders. Again I remember disdain in HK towards mainlanders several years ago but it has turned into animosity.

As of SZ, OCT bay (as in the link above) is the nicest place imo at the moment, than Seaworld in Shekou and the seashore, with (tens of ?) kms of largely green promenade, you can rent then ride a bycicle along it. I know quite a few people hike on the hills of Shekou but I'm no better hiker when in SZ than when in HK, and can't comment. There are actually a few hookers (at night only) in Seaworld, I find them shocking but only because they are very old. It's a bit frustrating in Shenzhen, most expats look broke ( many are on not so comfy expat packages) compared to the local entrepreneurs and local young girls don't care much for the foreigners ( I didn't investigate the issue much, but rich locals seem to have access to much cuter mistresses). Westerners seem more popular in Taipei.

If you have a mainland visa, you can catch a ferry to Shekou one day from the Macau Ferry Terminal in Sheung Wan and walk to Seaworld and around Shekou from there. It's a 1 hour ferry ride and can make for a pleasant day or week end trip.

https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/...VLBQx.?p=seaworld+shekou&fr=moz35&fr2=piv-web
More...
 
basically, to sum you up, you are saying that with a space suit, gas mask, a private shuttle (better private heli), bringing your own food, your own hookers (cause the pretty ones would not touch westerners), and hiking with couple body guards will be the best way to enjoy Shenzhen. Got it, thanks.

luisHK said:
Also much better to go to SZ with private car or the ferry, the Lowu border, the one you reach by train, is quite messy indeed although I'm not sure the mix of touts/prostitutes/pickpockets is of actuality.
More...
 
I edited my post added Futian as the more lively district, more where single adults might like to hang out btw. Seaworld has been renovated, new parts have opened about 1 year ago, and there is a nice hilton there as well; Seaworld at night is where most expats seem to go out (it's not better than LKF or even Wan Chai though , I would recommend neither HK nor SZ for expat nightlife), but some clubs seem popular in Futian as well
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top