Ahmadinejad at Columbia - where's the love for the non-moonbat speakers?

[DrEvil]

Quote from Haroki:

That's right, it didn't collapse from the fire, and it gives the reasons why it didn't - inclusion of a concrete core and the concrete "technical floors".

But steel frame buildings HAVE collapsed from fire alone, so to claim otherwise is a lie:

http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm

Contrary to popular belief September 11, 2001 was not the first time a steel framed building collapsed due to fire. Though the examples below are not high rise buildings, they make the point that fire alone can collapse a steel structure.

The McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing. The theater was fire protected using drywall and spray on material. A high rise in Philly didn't collapse after a long fire but firefighters evacuated the building when a pancake structural collapse was considered likely. Other steel-framed buildings partially collapsed due fires one after only 20 minutes.

The steel framed McCormick Center was at the time the World's largest exhibition center. It like the WTC used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. Those trusses were unprotected but of course much of the WTC lost it's fire protection due to the impacts.

"As an example of the damaging effect of fire on steel, in 1967, the original heavy steel-constructed McCormick Place exhibition hall in Chicago collapsed only 30 minutes after the start of a small electrical fire."

http://www.wconline.com/CDA/Archive/
24ae78779d768010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

[Note this article has several comments from engineers who back the
WTC collapse theory.]

"The unprotected steel roof trusses failed early on in the fire"

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/mccormick_fire.html


The McCormick Place fire "is significant because it illustrates the fact that steel-frame buildings can collapse as a result of exposure to fire. This is true for all types of construction materials, not only steel." wrote Robert Berhinig, associate manager of UL's Fire Protection Division and a registered professional engineer. He also discusses UL's steel fire certification much more knowledgably than Kevin Ryan. He is an example of one more highly qualified engineer who supports the collapse theory.

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/02_d/berhinig.htm

From the FEMA report of the theater fire, my comments in [ ]
www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-097.pdf

On the morning of January 28, 1997, in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania township of Strasburg, a fire caused the collapse of the state-of-the-art, seven year old Sight and Sound Theater and resulted in structural damage to most of the connecting buildings.
The theater was a total loss, valued at over $15 million.

pg 6/74

The theater was built of steel rigid frame construction to allow for the large open space of the auditorium, unobstructed by columns... The interior finish in the auditorium was drywall.

The stage storage area, prop assembly building, and prop maintenance building were protected with a sprayed-on fire resistant coating on all structural steel. The plans called for the coating to meet a two-hour fire resistance assembly rating. The sprayed-on coating, which was susceptible to damage from the movement of theater equipment, was protected by attaching plywood coverings on the columns to a height of eight feet.

The walls of the storage area beneath the stage were layered drywall to provide a two-hour fire protection rating for the mezzanine offices [the WTC used drywall as fire protection in the central core] , and sprayed-on fire-resistant coatings on the structural
steel columns and ceiling bar joists supporting the stage floor.
pg 15/74

The two theater employees told the State Police Fire Investigator that when they first discovered the fire they noticed that the sprayed-on fire proofing had been knocked off the underside of the stage floor bar joists and support steel. The fire proofing was hanging on the wire mesh used to hold the coating to the overhead. The investigation revealed that the construction company's removal of the stage floor covering down to the corrugated decking involved striking the floor hard enough to knock off the sprayed-on protection, exposing the structural steel and bar-joists in the storage area. [The theater's spray-on fireproofing was newer and more modern than at the WTC, The theater was only seven years old. If striking the floor during renovations was enough to dislodge it imagine the impact of a 767]

pg 16/74

Temperatures of 1000° F can cause buckling and temperatures of 1500° F can cause steel to lose strength and collapse. When the heat and hot gases reached the stage ceiling they extended horizontally into the auditorium, causing the roof to fail all the way to the lobby fire wall. The fire also extended horizontally from the stage to the elevated hallway, causing the structural steel to fail and buckle in the prop assembly and prop maintenance buildings

pg 17/74

Once the heat of the fire caused the structural steel to fail in the storage area (aided by the damage to the sprayed-on fire protection during renovation), interior firefighting became too hazardous to continue. The truck crews ventilating the roof noted metal
discoloration and buckling steel.

pg. 21/74

The two hour fire resistance-rated assembly in the storage area beneath the stage was damaged during the stage floor renovation, leaving the structural members unprotected from the ensuing fire.

pg. 26/74

Buildings constructed of steel should, in effect, be considered unprotected and capable of collapse from fire in as few as ten minutes. Fire resistant coatings sprayed onto structural steel are susceptible to damage from construction work.

The impact of fire and heat on structural steel members warrant extreme caution by firefighters.

pg. 36/74
Unless the steel members are cooled with high-volume hose streams, the fire's heat can rapidly cause steel to lose its strength and contribute to building collapse.
pg. 37/74

Other Fires

In February 1991, a fire broke out in One Meridian Plaza - a 38 story office building in Philadelphia. The building was built during the same period as the WTC and had spray-on fire protection on its steel frame. Despite not suffering impact damage, authorities were worried it might collapse.

"All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a
possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged
floors."

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/txt/publications/tr-049.txt

About 2 years later, the NYFD was concerned that a steel framed building that partially collapsed during after a gas explosion might collapse entirely due to the resulting fire.

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-068.pdf


Part of a floor of an unprotected steel frame building collapsed in Brackenridge, Pennsylvania on, December 20, 1991, Killing 4 volunteer firemen
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-061.pdf


Part of the roof of a steel framed school in Virginia collapsed about 20 minutes after fire broke out


http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-135.pdf

Again did you actually read your post? There is not even one example of a steel building collapsing completely from a fire!

Again you proved my argument!

Still no answer to Silverstein's admission?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAgoI948GGI

No I didn't think you would.

Now please go and bug someone else you FREAK.

 

[Haroki]

Quote from DrEvil:

Again did you actually read your post? There is not even one example of a steel building collapsing completely from a fire!

It gave 2 examples of buildings that collapsed TOTALLY. And there were some other examples of partial collapses.

Why are you lying?

 

[DrEvil]

Quote from Haroki:

It gave 2 examples of buildings that collapsed TOTALLY. And there were some other examples of partial collapses.

Why are you lying?

I looked at your post and NO there are no buildings which completely collapse from fire alone.
Now I am not going to waste more time reading it yet again.

You have had a million chances to answer the question of why Silverstein admitted that building 7 was pulled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAgoI948GGI

You can't answer it, and it's fundamental.

Now you really are starting to creep me out!

For the last time, GO AWAY you FREAK.

Got that!

 

[hapaboy]

What's wrong, Dr. Evil? Are you now going to start claiming you've been misquoted (again)?

You're a loonie moonbat.

DEAL WITH IT!!

 

[DrEvil]

Quote from hapaboy:

What's wrong, Dr. Evil? Are you now going to start claiming you've been misquoted (again)?

You're a loonie moonbat.

DEAL WITH IT!!

Only if you start misquoting me again Brainiac.

run along now you little sheep.

 

[Haroki]

Quote from DrEvil:

You have had a million chances to answer the question of why Silverstein admitted that building 7 was pulled:

Well, you've got your interpretation of Silverstein says, and the rational have theirs. That's why it's dumb to discuss it - it's all about someone's interpretation of what he's referring to. If you want to claim it as fact, then I can introduce as fact that he denies ever ordering the firemen to "pull" one of his buildings, and the argument goes nowhere. I'm trying to introduce facts into the argument that can be discussed rationally.

And you never commented on the NIST 7 Report. What do you have to say to that? You were so sure that there was no ongoing investigation of the circumstances about the collapse of 7 that you were willing to call me a liar. But your "belief" that the illuminati won't investigate 7 has been shown to be the fabrication of CTerz.

Why no retraction?

 

[Haroki]

Quote from DrEvil:


Did I mention the FED? NO

I dunno, sounds like you're a CTer to me. Looks like you believe the whole "there is no income tax" CT theory to me...

Quote from dalailama:

1: Pay of debt with debt free US notes issued by the government

2: Abolish fractional reserve lending.. as the debt is paid off raise the reserve requirements of banks to absorb the new money and maintain stability

3: Repeal the Federal Reserve Act and the National Banking Act

4: Withdraw from the IMF, BIS and World Bank
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




dalailama,


don't pay income tax (if you are willing to go to court as has been seen with Ed Brown and others, they won't be able to find a law that says you have to or should pay it).

 

[nutmeg]

I've watched the Silverstein video, interesting, the guy has credibility in my book. I can understand where the ct'ers viewpoint is coming from. I do not see this ending in a checkmate. Imo, most of these theories end in a draw. You guys are good, no doubt. Frankly I prefer the futulity of the market and even there I often prefer to defer to the unanswerable. It is what it is and it duhs what it duhs.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from DrEvil:

You have had a million chances to answer the question of why Silverstein admitted that building 7 was pulled:

And how do you explain that? It's your conspiracy theory after all so you should have a reasonable explanation of why Silverstein would disclose a key part of a major government conspiracy on TV. And while you are on it you might also want to explain why according to your theory Silverstein was calling the shots on a government conspiracy, why he was giving orders to the fire department commander and why the Fire Department (which is not trained in demolition) was doing the demolition in the first place.

PS I would also like to know about alleged motives of this conspiracy. Every conspiracy has a motive, yet in this specific case no one has yet explained what the government stood to benefit from the demolition of the building, especially given huge complexities and risks involved. I hate to burst your bubble but you have no case without a motive.

 

[I.Q.]

Quote from dddooo:
PS I would also like to know about alleged motives of this conspiracy.

You want to know why they decided to demolish three large New York City skyscrapers? You want motive? Here it is. Read it and weep!


"Lucky Larry" Silverstein

You’ve got to be lucky to make $4 Billion killing on a 6-month investment of $124 Million

Larry Silverstein is the New York property tycoon who purchased the entire WTC complex just 6 months prior to the 9/11 attacks. That was the first time in its 33-year history the complex had EVER changed ownership.

Mr. Silverstein’s first order of business as the new owner was to change the company responsible for the security of the complex. The new security company he hired was Securacom (now Stratasec). George W. Bush's brother, Marvin Bush, was on its board of directors, and Marvin’s cousin, Wirt Walker III, was its CEO. According to public records, not only did Securacom provide electronic security for the World Trade Center, it also covered Dulles International Airport and United Airlines — two key players in the 9/11 attacks.

The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for many years to the Bush family. KuwAm has been linked to the Bush family financially since the Gulf War. One of its principals and a member of the Kuwaiti royal family, Mishal Yousef Saud al Sabah, served on the board of Stratesec.

Now, consider: The members of a small cabal owned the WTC complex, controlled its electronic security, and also controlled the security not only for one of the airlines whose aircraft were hijacked on 9/11, but the airport from which they originated.

Another little “coincidence” -- Mr. Silversten, who made a down-payment of $124 million on this $3.2 billion complex, promptly insured it for $7 Billion. Not only that, he covered the complex against “terrorist attacks”.

Following the attacks, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy ($7B), based on the two -- in Silverstein's view -- separate attacks. The insurance company, Swiss Re, paid Mr. Silverstein $4.6 Billion — a princely return on a relatively paltry investment of $124 million.

There’s more. You see, the World Trade Towers were not the real estate plum we are led to believe. From an economic standpoint, the trade center -- subsidized since its inception by the NY Port Authority -- has never functioned, nor was it intended to function, unprotected in the rough-and-tumble real estate marketplace. How could Silverstein Group have been ignorant of this?

The towers required some $200 million in renovations and improvements, most of which related to removal and replacement of building materials declared to be health hazards in the years since the towers were built. It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings.

The projected cost to disassemble the towers: $15 Billion. Just the scaffolding for the operation was estimated at $2.4 Billion!

In other words, the Twin Towers were condemned structures. How convenient that an unexpected “terrorist” attack demolished the buildings completely.

WTC Building 7 was a part of the WTC complex, and covered under the same insurance policy. This 47-storey steel-framed structure, which was NOT struck by an aircraft, mysteriously collapsed 8 hours later that same day into its own footprint at freefall speed — exactly in the manner of the Twin Towers.

How could this have happened? Mr. Silverstein gave the world the answer when he slipped up during a PBS television interview a year later, on 9/11/2002:

"I remember getting a call from the...er...fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

As anyone who knows anything about construction can tell you, “Pull” is common industry jargon for a controlled demolition.

One thing is for sure, the decision to 'pull' WTC 7 would have delighted many people. Especially because it has been reported that thousands of sensitive files relating to some of the biggest financial scams in history — including Enron and WorldCom -- were stored in the offices of some of the building’s tenants:

* US Secret Service
* NSA
* CIA
* IRS
* BATF
* SEC
* NAIC Securities
* Salomon Smith Barney
* American Express Bank International
* Standard Chartered Bank
* Provident Financial Management
* ITT Hartford Insurance Group
* Federal Home Loan Bank

The Securities and Exchange Commission has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed by the collapse of WTC 7. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency's major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. ..."Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive," said Max Berger of New York's Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. "This is a disaster for these cases."

Citigroup says some information that the committee is seeking [about WorldCom] was destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attack on the World Trade Center. Salomon had offices in 7 World Trade Center. The bank says that back-up tapes of corporate emails from September 1998 through December 2000 were stored at the building and destroyed in the attack.

Inside WTC 7 was the US Secret Service's largest field office with more than 200 employees. "All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building," according to US Secret Service Special Agent David Curran.

What a neat, complete, and fortuitous turn of events was 9/11.

Incidentally, it’s worth noting that one of Lucky Larry’s closest friends — a person with whom it’s said he speaks almost daily by phone — is none other than former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

More on that cozy little relationship later...