Ahhh more talk about the debt ceiling yet again!!!

Quote from PlinytheTrader:

I agree with you on some of the points you mentioned. Traditional manufacturing jobs are not going to return to America anytime soon, so i agree that the only way to combat the job loss is by finding new opportunities that currently aren't being served in the manufacturing industry. The issue lies within our educational system as you brought up. I do think as a country we need to put a bigger importance on fixing our eductaional system, but throwing more money at the problem and hiring more teachers isn't the solution. The entire system needs to be blown up and re evaluted on how to better prepare our students for real world job needs going forward. I don't know what the best model is, wether its more charter and trade schools or even schools more specifically focused. I just know that we will keep falling farther behind if we stick to the same process where students don't really learn much in primary school and go on to get a degree in eurpean history, general studies, or basket weaving in college. Those students will not be prepear to provide any substance to the job market all while being saddled with a $100k in student loan debt that they can't pay back. This process weighs on the economy and needs to be changed, and it has to come from Washington, but I don't see the government as being willing to even entertain radical changes because it would rock the status quo.
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Typical student loan debt is in the mid twenties, easily handled.
Job training and education are not the same thing. Both are important, but public education is very important in a democratic society were almost everyone over eighteen gets to vote.

I think one of the most important things we should look at, and study, is the attitudes and expectations of students versus the attitudes and expectations of teachers here, compared with that in other countries where educational results at the primary and secondary levels are better . The question that should be explored is this: is the pressure on the students to learn and perform greater or less than the pressure on teachers and schools to teach? Who should bear the greater responsibility for one's education: the student or the teacher? Think about that. I'm fairly confident what the answer from such a study will be, because I graduated from high school just before Johnson's "Great Society" and was in college during the Great Society. I witnessed the changes first hand, and the subsequent changes in student attitudes.
 
Quote from piezoe:

Typical student loan debt is in the mid twenties, easily handled.
Job training and education are not the same thing. Both are important, but public education is very important in a democratic society were almost everyone over eighteen gets to vote.

I think one of the most important things we should look at, and study, is the attitudes and expectations of students versus the attitudes and expectations of teachers here, compared with that in other countries where educational results at the primary and secondary levels are better . The question that should be explored is this: is the pressure on the students to learn and perform greater or less than the pressure on teachers and schools to teach? Who should bear the greater responsibility for one's education: the student or the teacher? Think about that. I'm fairly confident what the answer from such a study will be, because I graduated from high school just before Johnson's "Great Society" and was in college during the Great Society. I witnessed the changes first hand, and the subsequent changes in student attitudes.
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it's changed piezoe, I went to college, back then any old kind of bachelors degree insured you some kind of job. maybe not a very exciting job, maybe not the joib you dreamed of, but a job good enough to marry a girl and make a stay at home mom out of her and raise three kids.

after I had my most recent mental breakdown, I went back to school and got involved with reintroducing prarie grass in Illinois (it's not as simple as you would think, and requires a lot of human intervention.)

and I looked around at the kids going to college

and I saw the whole thing was originally set up by rich people so their kids could get the trouble out of their system and make connections

they even had fraternities and sororities so their children could live like they did back home, with cooks and servants.

now, one of my kids just turned down a really creamy job in haiti, 50k/yr plus all expenses (including housing and air flight back to and from USA paid) and that is a house right on the beach.

because she can get 15k a year, and food stamps to work on her phd here in the states
 
I understand exactly what you are telling us, and I've observed the same sort of things as you. I believe this behavior of students today relates to the question I posed in my post above, viz., should most of the pressure to preform be on the teachers and schools or on the students?

Prior to Johnson only 38% of high school seniors went on to college, and you are correct about those students having come mainly from the upper middle and wealthier classes. A grade of "C" was average and plenty of kids from wealthy families flunked out. In the public high schools and junior highs, if you did not perform in the college prep classes, you'd be re-tracked into vocational training. Yes, we had tracking back then by the time you got to junior high. You were either in Latin or shop. Another major difference is that pre-LBJ if a student did poorly very few would have considered this to be a problem of poor schools or bad teachers. Back then much more responsibility for academic success rested on the student then it does today. Today, if a student does poorly it is the schools fault or the teachers fault -- at least that's what I hear.

This is what comes from not recognizing that we are not all the same. Some are better suited for Latin and some for Welding. Both should be respected equally.

I think we would do better to go back to tracking, and after the sixth grade put the primary responsibility for learning on the student. Let the students decide for themselves whether they would rather weld or conjugate Latin verbs, and let their performance indicate their decision.. But above all make sure that the opportunity for them to choose is there, and that no one is denied that choice because of poverty or hard circumstances.

One of the best things to come out of the Great Society was greatly expanded educational opportunity. But we got confused somewhere between "everyone should have the opportunity to go to college" and "everyone should go to college".
 
There are 196 countries in the world and they are not sleeping like thety used to. Every country out there is after thebest interest for themselves. They awakened.

USA built all the infrastructure, army, cities, factories and all when oil was 1 dollar per barrel. There was no other country producing pattents, sending ships to space, do research on various areas, have the best colleges in the world etc.

Fast fwd 50 years, all that infrastructure, factories cities roads highways are in rust. Workforce is aging, nobody wants to have babies instead they buy pets, it is cheaper. China is growing like crazy and taking the whole world behind it.

Last year I was in Istanbul, Turkey for vacation. An American friend mine was showing me around and he said "we have been told Boston is number one interms of number of colleges, but did you know Istanbul will have more than that in 5 years? Did you know that there are 100 hotels, waiting to be built but can't because of not availability of land." Can you imagine this?

Folks, this is Turkey not even among the top 20 countries in the world. The whole world waken up and start to get more from the pie, yet the pie is not growing that fast. USA is not getting poorer, it is just that the other 195 countries started to run instead of walking. This trend is IRREVERSIBLE. Because they smelled the very essence of capitalism which is money.

The inevitable outcome is USA will get downgraded several times, USD will be devalued, USD will be less of a use in world trade, USA population will age faster since people will hold on making babies and marriage until economy improves which will never happen. Immigration will diminish and only the bottom of the barrel will immigrate to USA. Cars and houses will get smaller, income power will go down gradually.

Get used to it.
 
Quote from piezoe:

I understand exactly what you are telling us, and I've observed the same sort of things as you. I believe this behavior of students today relates to the question I posed in my post above, viz., should most of the pressure to preform be on the teachers and schools or on the students?

Prior to Johnson only 38% of high school seniors went on to college, and you are correct about those students having come mainly from the upper middle and wealthier classes. A grade of "C" was average and plenty of kids from wealthy families flunked out. In the public high schools and junior highs, if you did not perform in the college prep classes, you'd be re-tracked into vocational training. Yes, we had tracking back then by the time you got to junior high. You were either in Latin or shop. Another major difference is that pre-LBJ if a student did poorly very few would have considered this to be a problem of poor schools or bad teachers. Back then much more responsibility for academic success rested on the student then it does today. Today, if a student does poorly it is the schools fault or the teachers fault -- at least that's what I hear.

This is what comes from not recognizing that we are not all the same. Some are better suited for Latin and some for Welding. Both should be respected equally.

I think we would do better to go back to tracking, and after the sixth grade put the primary responsibility for learning on the student. Let the students decide for themselves whether they would rather weld or conjugate Latin verbs, and let their performance indicate their decision.. But above all make sure that the opportunity for them to choose is there, and that no one is denied that choice because of poverty or hard circumstances.

One of the best things to come out of the Great Society was greatly expanded educational opportunity. But we got confused somewhere between "everyone should have the opportunity to go to college" and "everyone should go to college".
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I wanted to take auto shop, but they said it was not for people like me, so I ended up in Latin. The only non catholic boy in there. It's a bitch when your car won't start, but good if you need to know a root word.
 
Quote from oldtime:

I wanted to take auto shop, but they said it was not for people like me, so I ended up in Latin. The only non catholic boy in there. It's a bitch when your car won't start, but good if you need to know a root word.
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:D I can relate to that.

On the flip side I hung out with the auto mechanics after school.
 
Quote from oldtime:

I wanted to take auto shop, but they said it was not for people like me, so I ended up in Latin. The only non catholic boy in there. It's a bitch when your car won't start, but good if you need to know a root word.
More...

I hated Latin, but managed to get through it some how. I remember reading, or trying to read, my Latin text, curled up in a chair, with a fever, so worried about an exam, and taking the exam the next day. Still sick. It was years later that I realized its value, which as you obviously realize too, vocabulary, and the ability to use the language.
 
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