Advice needed about top traders!

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Originally posted by Don Bright


I will repeat some of what was advised early on...you are seeking out a dream from "yesteryear" as there are very few in that side of the business. I want to encourage you to embrace your aspirations, but it might be easier to take up the guitar and compete with Britney's boyfriend.

On a serious note, however...you can get corporate listings for most global banks and brokerages via the regional (euro) exchanges....this may help..

FX trading is controlled by the banks and the traders themselves do not make the big money anymore...(yes a few do, just like a few garage bands turn into NSync)....evidently your last venture did not pan out too well....and I am sorry for that....so good luck, and think a bit about a minor course change...get into the back office, then the trading desk, block trading desk, or even go to an exchange for a while...start networking that way...

Just trying to help :-)
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Firstly my last venture was with a crap cv and covering letter these things take time we all have to learn, the lastest rewrite has been seen by an executive director at Charterhouse and is top-drawer. There are still many proprietry traders in foreign exchange in London(as after all it is the biggest dealing city for forex) usd/jpy traders are being offered half a million pounds senior dealers at international banks, head traders 5 to 10 million so you know little regarding this business and you run a proprietry trading business or advisory thing if you were a big cheese you would be global head of equities at Goldman Sachs but you are not.
 
This is the kind of answer I get for trying to offer some advice to some starry eyed kid who has been transfixed by fantasies perpetuated by FX "marketeers"??

Gee whiz - you post up 3 or 4 times, wondering why no one has responded...I give you some facts, and offer some help. I am sorry that we are only the biggest trading firm in the "Goldman Sachs" family (via SLK)...

Anyway, good luck with your life, try to get past the delusionary stage, and join Hitman at the therapist..."anger management" you know......

(just kidding Hitman!!)....
 
How are you related to the Goldman family, what they own you or something, anyway it still does not deter from the fact that proprietry traders in the sense of those professionals trading your firms capital are failed institutional traders on the buy and sell side eg fund management and bank traders, these are the real deal. Sorry if I came across as aggressive, just another trait of institutional traders, head of derivatives at CSFB earnt 75 million dollars last year cant say which city but that is real money, please now tell me you earnt a 100 mil last year?

Also, why are you on a little trading forum for day traders and I-Banking wannabes?
 
Originally posted by nicholassegrue



Firstly my last venture was with a crap cv and covering letter these things take time we all have to learn, the lastest rewrite has been seen by an executive director at Charterhouse and is top-drawer. There are still many proprietry traders in foreign exchange in London(as after all it is the biggest dealing city for forex) usd/jpy traders are being offered half a million pounds senior dealers at international banks, head traders 5 to 10 million so you know little regarding this business and you run a proprietry trading business or advisory thing if you were a big cheese you would be global head of equities at Goldman Sachs but you are not.
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Nicholas,

I think Don was just trying to offer some valuable advice, the first of which is that its very difficult to get hired into a respectable bank without a college degree. The best way I believe would be to take any job possible at the bank, such as the back office, and impress your superiors with your dedication and true interest in trading. If/when a spot comes open on the trading floor, you'll have a better shot at getting the position.
 
I appreciate his comments but I took it more as an assault on my intellect, intelligence and desire to be successful which is why I went on the defensive. I am sending off my 90 covering letters and resumes in batches over the next month after each I will make the due follow up calls. If I don't get anything then I will try and get a role in the back office, but how would I lateral from back office to the dealing room? Would managers in back office be able to link me?
 
Quoting you: "How are you related to the Goldman family, what they own you or something, anyway it still does not deter from the fact that proprietry traders in the sense of those professionals trading your firms capital are failed institutional traders on the buy and sell side eg fund management and bank traders, these are the real deal. Sorry if I came across as aggressive, just another trait of institutional traders, head of derivatives at CSFB earnt 75 million dollars last year cant say which city but that is real money, please now tell me you earnt a 100 mil last year?

Also, why are you on a little trading forum for day traders and I-Banking wannabes?
"

My response: First off, Bright Trading has been the largest clearing member of SLK/Goldman since the 1970's....and one of our good friends, Blair Hull, sold his firm for 550 Million dollars to GS (which made him the biggest shareholder in GS). The reason I tell you this, is that humility is a much better force than "aggressive, a trait of institutional traders, etc." You never know who you are going to meet up with, and who is going to be working for whom.

The reason I participate on this forum, is partly because I like helping others out (ala my monthly columns in Stocks and Commodities magazine, my weekly radio show, etc.), and (of course) partly because we, as a firm, grow from "attraction" rather than "aggressive promotion" ....If I were to stoop to aggressive responses, it would go something like this: The people I have been on the trading floors with, and work with, would "chew up and spit out" these Institutional babies who are afraid to try trading on their own with their own money. But since I am a mellow guy, I won't. :-)

I am smiling as I type this, with the hopes that perhaps a small part of what I say will make sense, and that maybe, just maybe, I can help out another human being.

So, all that being said...good luck again. Let me know if I can help.
 
Originally posted by Htrader
I think Don was just trying to offer some valuable advice, the first of which is that its very difficult to get hired into a respectable bank without a college degree.
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Yes, as in an =MBA from a top school= (e.g. Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, NU, Penn). Goldman, in particular, is =very= fussy.
 
To Segrue,

There was an article recently in a UK financial paper about an Ibanker spending 44K pounds for lunch. I am sure you read it .
I am even surprised you haven't started a thread on which banks would allow you to spend insane amounts for lunch since it seems your primary interest in the profession of trading is how big a bonus etc you can get, the whole glamourous aspect of being a trader and not so much the markets. You could also show some respect to people who have been trading independently for decades, are entrepreneurs and really love the markets.
 
They were bond traders at Barclays Capital and it was last year, 5 of the 6 have now been sacked as a result of it, also they payed for the wine themselves it was not a meal with clients, so you are slightly wrong with your comment, anyway I have nothing to say to Don, in my opinion trading in an I-Bank is the way forward for me, I dont even want to be a trader beyond 25, as I already stated I wish to be my own boss and set up my own company once I have aqcuired the neccessary capital.
 
nicholassegrue:

I think I can give you some general recruiting advice and experience as regard to top ibanks. I had offers from Goldman, Merrill, and other i-banks when I got out of a top school. I interned at Merrill's institutional trading desk while in school then went to the buyside as institutional money manager. My Merrill manager said,"We only recruit at top schools. Nothingless." Yes, it's exclusive. And now doing this prop thing.

Here's the typical recruiting routine:

1) On campus interview at usually top 10-20 schools(Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princeton, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)

2) You submit your resume. And if they like you they called you to schedule an interview. If not don't expect any response no matter how many resumes/cover letters/phone calls you make.

3) They usually ask logic/math/quantitative/basic programming/compsci questions especially if you are interested in a quantitative area like derivatives and/or fixed income. Maybe basic quesitons about Black Scholes option pricing, probablity questions that relate to binomial models. Derivatives and fixed income(bonds) are about math and if you are not good at math, then forget it. That's their attitude. Not mine. I'm a nice guy.

4) Also your GPA and SAT. I know Goldman is a snobby in that way. But a very high SAT(especially in the math like in the 99% percentile i.e. 750-800) usually impressed them enough to hire you even though you might not know jack shit about the market. It's a clubby thing.

5) After you pass the on-campus, they fly you to the their NY headquarter for another rounds of interviews which last all day! VP level and Sr. VP and Principal usually interviewed you. Analyst and associates just tell you how their job is and beign personal and friendly.

6) And if you pass all of that, then you get an offer and dinner etc.

I personally, dont' think all of this actually makes one a great trader. But in a way, these ibanks want to "FILTER" people out. And that's their way to filter by settign high academic standards. Though the best traders in the world might be a high school dropout.

But, you gotta remember, Wall St. ISN"T about prop trading. They are mainly market makets. And relationships, credentials, academics kinda matter because they need to impress their institutional clients on the buy side liek hedge fund managers and mutual fund guys. I've been on both sell and buy side. So , I know how the game works.

As to the $$, the average guy doesn't make as much as you THINK! It's all myth. They start you out pretty average if you just have a bachelors. Maybe 45-60K + moving bonuses,etc. And if you have an MBA from Harvard or Sloan then the package starts around 120K. The real $ comes from AFTEr working on a good trading desk for a few years and developinga "book" of clients. Then it goes up anywhere from $250-$500K easily and then $750-$1M/yr if you make it to MD(managing director). But the thing is MOST people don't make it!

Or they quit and go to the buy side and becoem hedge fund managers and get the real paycheck of $10-$20M if they are good. I HIGHLY DOUBT about the average currency trader or any ibank market maker raking in the millions. Only the very best ones. Most of them probably make $500-$750K/yr.

So, hopefully you find this info useful and ground you into reality.

I don't doubt your intelligence and ablity. I think everyone has a chance at making it big. But the institutional game is less about pure market ablity and more about credentials and what degrees/school you went to. Look, the average money manager can't beat the S&P500 though it doesn't stop thenm from getting their huge bonuses and managing hundreds of millions and billions as in Fidelity and Janus. More money than any daytrader/prop trading will be able to manager. Though I think there are some very very good prop traders out there that probably know more and better at timing the market than these institutional people.

but that's how the game works..

good luck. if you have any recruiting questions then feel free to ask me. been there done that.

trader99
 
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