Abortion

Quote from Turok:

Ok, that is a perfectly fine position, but it IS inconsistent with a "life begins at conception" position. In my crude example conception takes place on the counter in the petri dish (this is not a purely theoretical discussion, these out of womb fertilizations happen regularly)

Again, there are no "wrong" answers...you questioned where I drew my line and now I'm getting you back. :-)

So, let's them move the process one step further...

You are a medical professional and you have on your counter an egg you fertilized outside the womb -- a "non-life" we shall say from your previous response.

Using a turkey baster (or other appropriate tool) you "plant" this egg in the womb of the woman. Exactly 10 seconds later and before you remove the baster she screams..."I don't want to be pregnant" and asks you to simply flush the offending egg out of her womb using a saline wand (or other appropriate tool). Remember, 10 seconds ago the entity was a non-life and you could do with it as you wish without offense

You comply. Murder? Guilt ridden to the grave?

JB
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Wow, we are really getting into semantics here aren't we? I guess in order for me to be consistent, I'm going to have to say yes although I'm sure there must be some sort of incubation period if we want to get really technical here. But to make things simple and stay consistent, I'm going to say yes.

Of course I would love to see the situation where a woman wants to be a surrogate mother and has thought this over for months upon months upon months only to start screaming 10 seconds after the fertilized egg is placed in her body to get it out. So we are resorting to a very extreme example here aren't we? LOL.

Like I said before Turok, whenever in doubt, I will always err on the side of life. If later in life I am proven wrong scientifically and someone says gee Mav, you were wrong, it was officially announced today that life begins exactly to the day on the 9th week after conception, then I would not feel bad at all. However if I carried the opposite view and it was later discovered, scientifically of course that life actually does begin at conception, well then, I would feel pretty bad about it. I guess that is another way to look at it.
 
Quote from Turok:

Mav:
>Any termination after that point in my mind is
>playing God with a life of another human being.

Another question here. I'm wondering if you really mean "playing God" in the semi-literal sense of "only God should decide who lives and dies", or if you are simply using the term as a figure of speach?

JB
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Figure of speech.
 
Ok, fair enough.

Yes, it was an extreme example but it did elicit a statement from you that perhaps you can use to understand mine and others positions (not asking for agreement, only an attempt at understanding).

You say:
>...although I'm sure there must be some sort of
>incubation period if we want to get really technical here

Many of us take that EXACT position. If the incubation period is 30 seconds then for the first 10 second (err on the side of caution after all) it can all be undone. If it's 3 days then for the first day it's fine to undo. If it's 9 months than 3 months is fine. It's all a matter of degree. Both Cutten and dbgabrial have eloquently stated somewhat similar positions (if I'm wrong I apologize...not trying to put words in their mouths).

I'm not convinced that science will ever have the answer in this matter because I believe we are all asking different questions. Surf is asking about the uniqueness of it's DNA construct. ART perhaps is asking the "sentient" question. I'm asking a viability question. You may be asking something completely different.

It takes all types.

JB


Quote from Maverick74:

Wow, we are really getting into semantics here aren't we? I guess in order for me to be consistent, I'm going to have to say yes although I'm sure there must be some sort of incubation period if we want to get really technical here. But to make things simple and stay consistent, I'm going to say yes.

Of course I would love to see the situation where a woman wants to be a surrogate mother and has thought this over for months upon months upon months only to start screaming 10 seconds after the fertilized egg is placed in her body to get it out. So we are resorting to a very extreme example here aren't we? LOL.

Like I said before Turok, whenever in doubt, I will always err on the side of life. If later in life I am proven wrong scientifically and someone says gee Mav, you were wrong, it was officially announced today that life begins exactly to the day on the 9th week after conception, then I would not feel bad at all. However if I carried the opposite view and it was later discovered, scientifically of course that life actually does begin at conception, well then, I would feel pretty bad about it. I guess that is another way to look at it.
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Quote from dgabriel:

Life beginning at conception is not quite an accurate description. The sperm and the egg prior to conception are both alive, and represent biological entities.

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its a DISTINCT human life that begins at conception. yes, sperm and egg are alive but part of the male / female. the foetus is a DISTINCT entity hence the need for protection.

surfer :D
 
Quote from marketsurfer:

its a DISTINCT human life that begins at conception. yes, sperm and egg are alive but part of the male / female. the foetus is a DISTINCT entity hence the need for protection.

surfer :D
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Same question to Surf as to Mav:

>I'm guessing from your position that you could have an egg
>in one vial and sperm in another and leave them both on the
>lab counter until next week (to die) with no guilt. However,
>as your last act on friday if you dropped them both into the
>petri dish, walked away and let them go at it for the weekend
>(then to die before Monday), you have a case of murder.

JB
 
Kahlil Gibran -- On Children

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.



Abortion is something I will never be able to accept. I think it is one of the greatest human tradgedies of our times...
 
Quote from Turok:

Same question to Surf as to Mav:

>I'm guessing from your position that you could have an egg
>in one vial and sperm in another and leave them both on the
>lab counter until next week (to die) with no guilt. However,
>as your last act on friday if you dropped them both into the
>petri dish, walked away and let them go at it for the weekend
>(then to die before Monday), you have a case of murder.

JB
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yes. exactly.

:)
 
Thanks for your clarity and consistency Surf.

Do you believe in any of the common abortion exceptions in cases of rape/incest/saving life of mother?

JB



Quote from marketsurfer:

yes. exactly.

:)
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