Abortion

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work.

The Christian right and pro lifers have not demonstrated their willingness to adopt and care for all unwanted children.

Women will continue to get abortions, and there will be abortion pills soon, that even if outlawed, will be available via the black market.

You cannot stop an idea through the state's attemtp at prohibition of personal choice.

Quote from lilboy716:

if a pregnancy is unwanted, the resulting child would not be properly cared for. most likely would become future criminals.

during the 90's, most states experienced a suddent crime rate drop. most of the police department took it like its their new tatics were working in real life. it coincides with the decision of roe v wade in 1973. those would be criminals did not exist because abortion was legalized during that period. in the case if abortion is outlawed, people will till resort to the back ally practices.

whats your take?
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OK, let me make a few points here. First of all ART, you keep talking about this as a religious issue. It is not. You keep talking about the Christian right, but are you not aware that the Roman Catholic Church is very pro life and very very democratic? Are you aware ART that many many people who are not even remotely religious are pro life?

And let me clarify something else here that many of you are missing. I am very much pro choice, just like the entire Republican party. We completely defend a woman's right to choose whether or not she should have sex and who she decides to have sex with. Absolutely man, I am very much pro choice. Now, once she chooses to have sex and suddenly there is an undesirable outcome, well that is where we differ. See, the woman already made her choice, now she doesn't like the outcome, so she wants another choice now. WTF man. How many choices does she get? At one point do we start holding people responsible for their actions? I mean can I rob a bank and say I'm sorry once I get caught? Can I rape a girl and say afterwards, hey man, I thought she wanted it and expect to get away with it? Can I drive a car under the influence and kill a family of 4 in an accident and blame it on the alcohol and say its not my fault? Can I kill someone I don't like and just blame it on my parents for not raising me right? I mean seriously, where we draw the line? At one point do we start talking about personal responsibility?

See liberals don't like to hear the word personal responsibility. That's why they support things like affirmative action. That's why they are soft on crime. Hey, it's not his fault, he was abused as a child. That's why they want to tax the rich and give it to the poor. Hey, it's too hard for the poor people to make money, we'll just take it from the rich since they have too much and give it to the poor. And when it comes to abortion they say, well, the girl didn't mean to get pregnant, it's not her fault, let her kill her baby.

I tell you man, liberals need to understand personal responsibility. Abortion is not about religion, it's about personal responsibility. All women have a choice what to do with their bodies. If I have to be responsible for my actions, then they have to be responsible for theirs, it's that simple.

We can't just call timeout in life when things happen that we don't like. If I lose all my money trading I can't cry for a do over and get my money back. The money is gone. We all make mistakes in life and we all have to pay a price for them, that's called life. That's how we learn. What kind of society would we have if we never had to pay for our mistakes? Think about it ART, just think about it.
 
Quote from fofumfee:

First of all, the issue of whether or not a fetus is a sentient human life is unanswered scientifically

I don't see this happening, as the right to lifers are motivated almost exclusively by their religious belief systems.
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the fetus is distinct genetically from either parent. it is a separate living entity once conceived. as a proponent of individual rights to the extreme, it is my view that the genetically distinct entity must be afforded one of the few legitimate duties of government which would be "protection against aggression".

surfer
 
Quote from fofumfee:

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work.

The Christian right and pro lifers have not demonstrated their willingness to adopt and care for all unwanted children.

Women will continue to get abortions, and there will be abortion pills soon, that even if outlawed, will be available via the black market.

You cannot stop an idea through the state's attemtp at prohibition of personal choice.
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weak argument. comparing abortion to prohibition is stupid.

the state stops you from killing a born infant, why do you see a distinction from an unborn one ?

surfer :)
 
The state stops people from killing children, a fetus is not a child.

An egg is not a chicken, is it? Nope, not until it hatches is it a chicken, any more than a fetus is a child before birth.

The analogy of prohibition to abortion is valid, because the point is that trying to prohibit people from doing what they want simply doesn't work.

There is this fallacy being perpetuated by the right to lifers that abortion is a joyful experience for women, that it is something they look forward to.

As if..... like women get pregnant just hoping to go through the pleasure of an abortion.

Talk to women who have had abortions, ask them how it feels, how much pleasure it was, how much guilt and remorse they feel for the most part.


Quote from marketsurfer:

weak argument. comparing abortion to prohibition is stupid.

the state stops you from killing a born infant, why do you see a distinction from an unborn one ?

surfer :)
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Mav:
>At one point do we start holding people responsible for
>their actions? I mean can I rob a bank and say I'm sorry
>once I get caught? Can I rape a girl and say afterwards,
>hey man, I thought she wanted it and expect to get away
>with it? Can I drive a car under the influence and kill a family
>of 4 in an accident and blame it on the alcohol and say its
>not my fault? Can I kill someone I don't like and just blame
>it on my parents for not raising me right? I mean seriously,
>where we draw the line? At one point do we start talking
>about personal responsibility?

You have picked a horrible point to defend Mav. Let's take your "how many choices do you want" to a few perfectly visible and logical conclusions and see how they effect your life...

You *choose* to take a turn just a bit too fast on a snowy road and t-bone your car into a tree. You are in critical condition but hey man...YOU MADE YOUR CHOICE!!!! Don't cha' come whinin' to me 'bout your little medical condition. Don't expect an ambulance to show up in this storm. Don't expect others to come to your aid. Suffer like a MAN. Take some personal responsibility will ya.

You choose a nice restaurant downtown (it's always been good before) and eat a romantic dinner with your SO. Woops...bad fish. Serious food poisoning at 2 in the morning. Uh Oh -- Well sorry Mav. See, you had the opportunity to choose another eatery but NO, YOU CHOSE THIS ONE and now you are F**KED!. Why should anyone help you? Cowboy up buddy and die like a man.

See, in spite of your hollow assertions that one need always live with the consequences of ones choices, few of us REALLY do -- including YOU.

Now I'm BIG on personal responsibility and I won't stand for whining, but if you or I carelessly(or even carefully) get exposed to hepatitis or SARs or get lung cancer from smoking or colon cancer from red meat or...or...or... We can still GET ANOTHER CHANCE at the life we see for ourselves. YOU want it, I want it and SHE wants it.

No, the difference in how we see this is not a personal responsibility issue (as proven above)...it's a MEDICAL issue. You (I assume) see life beginning at conception and I don't. It's a personal thing and I doubt you and I will ever agree. For a time (first trimester at least) I see pregnancy as simply a medical condition for the female -- a medical condition viewed EXACTLY like any other condition with emotional repercussions (mastectomy, hysterectomy, etc). The woman has the RIGHT to medical treatment for the condition and society will serve itself well to provide such treatment.

Now, having said that I will also state that I am anti-abortion (for the most part) but strongly pro-choice (during first trimester).

JB
 
Parasites are separate and living entities that are found in the intestines of some human beings.

Is it murder to remove them?

Once a fetus is conceived, it is living matter, but it is not a human being, it is a fetus.

A fetus has no rights, it has no more rights because of its potential to be born, than the sperm and the egg have rights because they have the potential to become a fetus.



Quote from marketsurfer:

the fetus is distinct genetically from either parent. it is a separate living entity once conceived. as a proponent of individual rights to the extreme, it is my view that the genetically distinct entity must be afforded one of the few legitimate duties of government which would be "protection against aggression".

surfer
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Quote from Turok:

Mav:


Now, having said that I will also state that I am anti-abortion (for the most part) but strongly pro-choice (during first trimester).

JB
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yeah, a medical condition with distinct DNA.

LOL !


surfer :)
 
"Talk to women who have had abortions, ask them how it feels, how much pleasure it was, how much guilt and remorse they feel for the most part."


Sounds like an argument NOT to have an abortion in the first place to me.
 
Quote from fofumfee:

Parasites are separate and living entities that are found in the intestines of some human beings.

Is it murder to remove them?

Once a fetus is conceived, it is living matter, but it is not a human being, it is a fetus.

A fetus has no rights, it has no more rights because of its potential to be born, than the sperm and the egg have rights because they have the potential to become a fetus.
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i think parasites are found in the intestines of ALL human beings.

LOL !


very bad analogy. it is never murder to kill a bug ( parasite ). fetuses have human DNA that is distinct from either parent, making it an entity that needs protection. sperm and egg DNA is the same as each parent, together it is distinctly different, creating another individual. this is not a religious issue, it is an issue of individual rights.

surfer :D
 
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