A Trading Edge at a Proprietary Firm?

Hitman, or for that matter, anyone else that wants to take the pressure off of Hitman:) If you came to an intersection which street would you take, Wall St or Main St. FYI- 22 Y/O College Grad (May 2001)


Wall St: Assistant Trader, Nasdaq Desk - Morgan Stanley

Main St: Proprietary Trader Trainee - Hold Brothers



Any advice would greatly be appreciated!
 
hitman,

this trader you are talking about, how well is she doing with this summer market, i find it to be one of the most difficult i've traded in three years. i assume she probably is doing well, so my real question is WHAT IS SHE DOING???
thanks in advance!!!


 
Wall Street Versus Main Street:

Easy choice, take the offer from Morgan Stanley. You can get a job as a prep trader at any time you want, but if you work as an assistant for a few years and get promoted to a real trader, you will have a HUGE edge over 99.9% of the trading community.

Of course, if you are the laid back type who doesn't want to get bossed around and want to work your own schedule, then by all means take the prep trader position. As much as I love my freedom, I would absolutely love a chance to crack at a top firm's trading desk, given my educational background that will probably have to wait . . .

Summer Trading:

Everyone at this firm is having a tough time. May was my first down month since I turned positive (-$600, not much, but sucks when you worked through the entire month without a check), and this month I am flat. Our firm's overall stat fell quite rapidly.

That said, I believe she had no down days through out first 4 months of the year, and 3 down days since then, still pretty damn good if you ask me. Every day, she has this uncanny ability to be trading the right sector at right time. When the energies were getting hammered, she was short every day, 3-4 energy stocks. Last a few days that sector has been choppy, she had no position in them, and she has been shorting biotechs. It is plain amazing how she recognizes the hot spot and trades it. Throw in the fact that she rarely gets shaken out, always pyramiding and getting the most out of her winners (we are talking about 1-2 point off some stock, some sector, every day), and very very timely entry points, she makes money everyday.

No one else around me is capable of doing this, so don't feel bad . . .
 
Originally posted by Hitman
>
This is the type of job that's ideal for someone fresh out of college and can afford to burn a year or two even if it turns out to be a total failure. I DO NOT KNOW whether I can survive in this business for the long haul despite of all this, without a degree I really don't have a backup plan so this is do or die for me but it is ok because I am single, and as a friend I hope you give some serious thought into this before you dive in if you have a lot of responsibilities.

More...

Hitman:

You can confirm with my findings, through training with someone else, that in addition, many potential traders come from a successful business background, and are looking for something to do.

They also, do not have a lot to lose. I would strongly think about the odds of trading for a living.

Jeffrey
 
Thanks for the advice Hitman! One last, quick question...
What do you think would provide more opportunities etc.. A specialist on the floor of the NYSE or a desk job trading for one of the top I-Banks? Thanks again
 
Jeff:

Trading for a living would be a dream come true. Very few can do it, that's why I take great pride in what I do (well except my down days lol). Yes, there is a real possibility that I can get blown out, no problem, I will turn 22 this September and I can still find something else to do. I don't want to work for someone else all my life, so I guess it is better to get started earlier than later. I believe as long as I am willing to put the effort in, I will excel in SOMETHING.

Proptrader:

Have to give my vote to the specialist, since I hate those bastards :-) A specialist in a large cap stock can easily make 20 million a year.
 
Hitman:

I think you are a success just going for it, while you have a chance. "Failure is when you fail to try"
I wanted to address the others who have families, etc.

Jeffrey
 
I have a family (a daughter ;-) I think the big mistake is
to pursue this as a holly grail. Very few can be successful
at short term trading. that's why I decided to go for longer
time frame where I have a chance on a long run. I make
very good money as a computer contractor (or even as a FT
IT jock, my chances to make 120K a year trading is not
that great, my saving potential is also good - my wife is
very thrifty and I try to control myself, no more poker
for me !!!! ;)
Most daytraders will and do fail eventually. I played poker very actively, traded futures on the floor and I have some understanding of the math involved regarding - "chace of ruin" calcs and probability calcs regarding the frequency of trials vis a vis added vig (read commissions) you have a deck stacked against you !!! I mean very badly !!!!!!!!
I don't expect you to listen or even agree here, where
obviously the forum is for the glorification of the short
term trader. The alternative is trade part time, switch
funds around, save !!! Invest in the stock markets when
the fed eases, short it when rates go up...have some junk
bonds investments(best risk reward asset class of all !!!)
All I am saying is to open your horizons guys, cause
there are many ways to skin a cat...
I admire all who have the intestinal fortitude to try this
and the courage to stick with it If you are young and single you will learn a lot from Day trading, mostly
how to handle losses and learn patience in life !!!!
 
andrasnm,

Your statement that the odds are heavily stacked against you, has brought us back to the point of this thread.
In you opinion, does this apply to daytrading at an off floor prof. firm. If so, can you elaborate on 2-3 areas that make this in your opinion, as loosing game over time.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to get both sides of the spectrum. There are many on this site and prof. traders I have personally met and watch trade, who have been successfull for the past 3-5 years. Are you implying it will catch up to them if they trade another year or 2 or 3?

I can't help but think this is like any other small business(in respect to obtaining and maintaining profitablility). If you start a small business, you usually aren't profitable until a year or so and 7 out of 10 go out of business within 5 years. But the ones who are determined, disciplined, and well capitalized, make it through the learning curve and develop a base to build on.

If you trade at a prof. firm, you put up 25k and can trade 10 times this with only risking your 25k. Starting a small business requires more capitol, a lean on your house, and plenty of receivables to chase.(unless your in a cash business).

I agree being part of the big firms is the true edge, but is there truly a grand canyon dividing the rest of us?

 
Hitman: I saw a post back a few pages where you said you work 16 hour days. That is like a real job. I thought daytrading was designed for those of us who don't want real jobs, those who like to go trade the open, go golf and come back and trade the close. That is way too much work if trading NYSE takes 16 hr days. I have never worked over 6.5 hours a day scalping NASDAQs, and usually the avg day is only 3.5 hours. NYSE= lots of research= lots of hours. Nasdaq scalping= trading in seconds= no research, just reading the level 2 and futures= lots of time for fun. You should come on over to the dark side and get more time to relax.

Proptrader: If you are the person trying to get ahold of me, I will respond to you here on what I feel you are interested in. If not, sorry.

I would definately go try to learn at MSCO over prop trading if I had the chance. If you stick at Morgan, you will learn from some of the best market makers out there who have a huge advantage over all us. You can always go later and trade for yourself. Just save your money and then open an account as a customer or find a good prop deal. Anything that locks you up for years is bad and takes away your freedom, IMHO. If you go prop, look west, there are better deals available than those on the east coast.

 
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