A shoulder to cry on

Quote from OldTrader:

I'm always amused to read a post like this. What it says to me is that you started at some point that you "assumed" would remain the same for the remainder of your trading life....but it didn't. So you became "embittered" with your chosen profession, and you preach this "bitterness" to others.

First let me just say that I made my first trade in 1966. There were no listed options, no index futures. Commissions were huge so no one that I knew day traded.

Oh yes, then the market peaked in 1968 and commenced to trade in a range for the next 16 years or so. Can you imagine the guy who started in let's say 1955, who believed that the market would stay the same, what he might have to say about 1978?

Then too we had no bond futures, gold futures back in the 60's, but eventually they started. Gold at one time was a commodity that I day traded. I haven't daytraded gold in a couple of decades I think.

I have been trading the index futures from the beginning...first with the Value Line, then later the S&P futures when they started. I thought the S&P was a private ATM when it first started. Then the market got a little more sophisticated and I had to learn a few new tricks.

Guess what? I've been learning new tricks since I've been in this business. This business is exactly the same as it's always been. You need to shift, adjust, understand that no technique, no method lasts forever. But people have been making money in the stock market for well over a century. That hasn't changed at all.

I'm having a great year this year. I'm not trading the same way that I did when the index futures first started. I'm not sure that I'll be trading the same way next year that I do this year.

But what I'm confident about is that the stock market will still be moving around, just like it always has. It's my job to figure out how to make a buck out of it. Whining about how it "changed" is not going to help me in that task.

I think this business is a great business...but not an easy business. This is a business where a guy can make a fortune starting with a small amount of money. The first thing though you have to do is to learn the business of speculation. That takes some time and alot of effort.

To the original poster....I'd back away for a while if I were you. A loss of 19% is alot for 3 weeks. You sound like you're trading a small account, or trading too big of a position for the capital that you have. You need to look over what you're doing BEFORE you start trading again. You need a plan. It sounds like you're trading way too emotional. Until you have some type of plan that you can assure yourself works, I wouldn't trade again.

OldTrader


The facts do speak for themselves. Illiquid is on the mark when he delinneates the opportunities that are there and that he finds them very sufficient for getting the job done.

Turning to your comments in the last two paragraphs using the illiquid standard ( the other comments on poor market conditions are trivial once it is understood that money is being made), it is more than necessary for the thread starter to understand that when he looks at what he believed to be a plan, that he actually, in fact, did not have a plan.

He was, more than anything, telling himself to flee what he was doing. No person starting out can ever give himself permission to trade what he thinks is a plan. Beginning traders can do no more than warm up drills to start with.

In choosing the drills, there are about only three that are possible. These are all no risk drills as well. All that can be done to become a trader in the beginning is to learn how to have "experience". The experience gained is most valuable because it leads to knowledge and skills.

Everyone starts out with no knowledge, no skills and no experience. Where do these three things come from?

The thread starter did not have any of them and he cannot consider himself to have a plan. He is not capable of rationally assessing any plan either. If he were shown plans, he could not deal with any practical aspects of assessing much less using a plan.

If you look at the names people give themselves it is very evident that the names do not relate to making money but usually relate to lack of knowledge, skills and experience. there are few exceptions and most are related to the fact that the name being used is one that came from learning the hard way.

This person can best become a trader by doing drills. Three nice ones that do not cost much are: entering on brackets when heretofore very low volume dominated, doing wash trades, and holding in a market right after the open settles down and INCREASING volume has allowed a bracket entry.

The midday is best for the first drill. Late morning and mid afternoon is best for the second drill. The second drill is also used for all exits if the bracket entries were held too long. The third drill, holding (specifically holding on increasing volume), is the most important of all.

Knowledge gained from these drills is the key ingredient for all else. Brackets teach a person about who is in charge of entries: the market. Washes teach the knowledge that losing is not a necessity in trading. Holding on increasing volume gives a person the knowledge that people are what causes to market to move.

Imagine the basic skill of setting brackets. One part becomes a point of entry and the other is an initial stop. How can a person who knows nothing put brackets in place. Placing orders where the market is not is a VERY good experience. You get to watch the market after you set the bracket. Your value decisions sit there and the market moves to one of them. It takes other trader's decisions to get the market to your decision value. Other smarter traders. You join the smart traders soon enough when your bracket is hit.

Then begins drill number two. Learning to wash out after you have been taken into the market. this is not a drill for making money; it is a drill to learn that it is not necessary to lose money.

If you do drill three for each bracket entry, you get to learn how increasing volume is required to keep a trend moving. You will learn to "see" and "hear" the market with the "holding" drill. Leaving when volume stops increasing is a nice event. It occurs well before any wash trade drill can be done.

Skills show up using these three drills. Sharing roles (responsibilities) with the market comes with bracketing efforts. The washing skill is the most important emotional leavening skill you will ever acquire. It is so calming to know that you can always wash after an entry where the market has taken you into a trade as a consequence of price movement caused by smart traders. There is nothing wrong with entering the market a little later than the smart money.

The holding skill is the money skill. Drive for pleasure putt for money. Holding is putting stuff. You watch the increasing volume move you from the Tee and down the fairway and onto the green. Then the volume increases come to an end and you putt. How close to or whether it goes in the hole is just a matter of doing the holding drill enough times. Holing out about 18 times a days works out just fine. Count the peaking volume situations for a day and see what I mean.

bracket drill.........holding drill.......washing drill on lousy holds.

It is very hard to do such drills. It is very good to do these drills.

As you do them, you will notice that you no longer are plagued by the urge to flee after every entry.

Oh use a chart and mark brackets on it just for laughs. Notice that no matter how poorly you do it the price does move through one side of the bracket and later a peaking volume occurs.

Doing brackets properly is like choosing golf clubs for driving and making fairway shots. How hard is it to pull a club out of a bag anyway?

Skip thinking up trading plans for quite a while. It is not a possibility for any beginner and never was.

Discipline comes from a different place than beginners expect. You can't develop discipline until you know what you are doing. Drills impart disipline. Everyone should do a couple of washes every day. Some of them will make money you will find out. Thats just because you never get back to the wash price. Do a time out (only try for the wash for x minutes before you have to give up with a profit).
 
Uh, Jack, just a couple of caveats. Bracket breakouts from low volume are easy to test, and they, like, uh, don't WORK? And, uh, how do you explain that LOW volume consolidations after big runs often presage another big run? Uh, wasn't it YOU who talked about rockets? And, uh, Jack, please stop telling people they can "wash" without a loss. It ain't, uh, evident you should "wash" until you are in a loss position. It's like, uh, floor rotations try to shake you out? You talk about 1-2-3. Think about 1-2-3 ticks. Maybe even 4. Otherwise, a very good post. Except that you never mention oil. It's like, uh, we've transitioned from sperm oil to petroleum since you were a kid. Mike.
 
Quote from trade-ya1:

Thank you for the implied compliment. The tremendous proliferation of hedge funds has canibalized the game. In short, there is too many sharks at the table and not enough pigeons. At the same time, the authorities have sought to level the playing field aggressively by eliminating the old boys network of insider edges (ie. IPO allocations, wide spreads and trading increments, mutual fund timing, first call- Reg FD, etc. etc.). Furthermore, the Greenspan Fed is too smart and credible to make major mistakes leading to significant market volatility. Hedge Funds have dramatically dampened volatility by adding significantly more two-sided flow into the game thereby creating natural bidders on downdrafts and sellers into rallies. Hedge Funds are now a benchmarked product and are being asked to achieve the impossible (make money in all types of markets, post outsized returns, have reduced volatility, mitigate directional risk, and don't have down periods when your peers are positive). Somebody has got to pay the piper for this to occur. Hedge funds can no longer afford to have a down month when the hedge fund index is positive nor when the equity market is positive for the month. Furthermore, investors ask hedge funds to post outsized returns with lower volatility all the while mitigating the directional risk which has allowed mutual funds to survive by capitalizing upon the upward drift associated with equities. Naturally, hedge funds have become very whimpy unable to step out of the box and take a swing. There is currently no big supplier of edge to feed all of these hungry traders and funds looking to accomplish the impossible. Hedge Fund returns need to come from somewhere especially if Funds cannot ride the wave of the rising equity market like mutual funds do. To pronounce trend-following dead, is to suggest that human nature has somehow changed. It has not. However, markets have big moves because people are wrong-footed, not correctly positioned. We need some economic/global volatility to allow significant trends to re-emerge. The biggest near term hope in my mind is the changing of the guard at the Fed. If the new Chairman screws up a bit it may bring some much needed uncertainty back into the game.
Neil, don't take this wrong, because you and I made amends I don't want to unmend (de-mend?) that but... I want to comment on something you said.

"Hedge Funds have dramatically dampened volatility by adding significantly more two-sided flow into the game thereby creating natural bidders on downdrafts and sellers into rallies."

Neil, c'mon, how can you say that???

Example: I was long cable at sometime between 4AM and 7AM ET when the GBP suddenly starting crashing - ending up 250-points lower - sucking my money down with it.

Now, how can you say hedge funds reduce volatilily in that case?

The tumble was due to the bombings, of course.

The only come back you have would be to say, "If it were NOT for hedge funds, the crash would have been 4 or 5 cents!"

I don't believe that, whatsoever.

If anything, fast HF managers would have entered into short cable positions - driving the pound down maybe 1000+ points - but that didn't happen.

In the cable case, HFs had zero volatility-creating OR volatility-reducing impact.

fx
 
Quote from hjkl:


This process repeats, and I am so upset and frustrated with myself. How can I break all these bad habits and learn discipline? Or am I simply not cut out for trading???:( :( [/B]

Not cut out?............read my thread for new traders.
 
Quote from hjkl:

I started trading 3 weeks ago; now my account is down 19%. It is not the losing that bothers me as much, since I perceive it as a necessary tuition fee. What really upsets me is the fact that I always make the same mistakes, again and again, without the ability to break from them.

My hunch is too much size and risk. Being down 19 % in 3 weeks tells all about that. Start small and build size as you get better at it. Youll never make money doing what you do now as you will always take winners fast and let losses run.

ORM
 
Quote from hjkl:

This has probably appeared here a thousand and one times, but I am feeling so upset and frustrated at the moment, I wish to talk about it.

I started trading 3 weeks ago; now my account is down 19%. It is not the losing that bothers me as much, since I perceive it as a necessary tuition fee. What really upsets me is the fact that I always make the same mistakes, again and again, without the ability to break from them.

From the books by Mark Douglas, I know that in the end it is a trader's psychological ability that determines his success. Every day, before the markets open, I even try by telling myself repeatedly to be disciplined and stick to my plan. However, once I am in the environment, I just cannot control my emotions, and make all the mistakes again:

- rush to enter into a position due to the fear of losing out;
- when the price does not move immediately as expected, I begin to panic and close the position, before the stop is hit;
- then the price begins to move in my original trade's direction; I blame myself for not sticking to the stop and mourn the profit I could have made, and miss the second opportunity to enter;
- after that, the price takes off, and I just sit there, frozen, thinking of the mistake I made and the profit I missed, unable to enter when a new signal comes along.

This process repeats, and I am so upset and frustrated with myself. How can I break all these bad habits and learn discipline? Or am I simply not cut out for trading???:( :(

did you ever paper trade?

either way, you should go and do this until you can accept the reality of the markets.

keep reading douglas - several times. took me 4 reads before the book really sunk in, especially the last few chapters of the disciplined trader.

all the best


edit - also re-read grobs post a few times & do it.

at the end of the day though, remember its only money. your health and happiness are way more important.
 
Quote from illiquid:

One thing I've realized recently is that I only need to capture a fraction of the opportunities offered by the market in order to succeed at a level far beyond I'd ever imagined capable for an individual trader. The potential rewards offered by the financial markets far exceed the needs of any single trader; it's a thought that is at once both vastly encouraging yet utterly intimidating. But don't pay too much heed to those who say there is little opportunity left for us -- the liquidity is there, believe it.

shut it illiquid.

please keep your opinions to your self.

if you start posting this type of informative truth then there will be a lot more successful traders about. that will not help either of us will it?

we need their greed & fear to pay our bills.

please keep your good ideas to your self.


shhhhh!!
 
Recently, Illiquid has been going on these tirades of posting worthwhile comments in ET.

This calls for a banning!

Moderators, please do your duty and ban this troublemaker.

Thank You,

ElectricSavant
 
Lol, even if I had an actual clue as to what the markets are all about it wouldn't matter -- everything that a trader needs to know is already out there in countless variations. You could spell things out in black and white and it still won't help until he convinces himself with his own experiences and finds his own way.

I'm just here to convince my own dumb ass, and maybe do a fraction of what I say -- is a fraction of a fraction enough in this business? :confused:
 
No way, Illiquid you are my guru :)

Quote from illiquid:

Lol, even if I had an actual clue as to what the markets are all about it wouldn't matter -- everything that a trader needs to know is already out there in countless variations. You could spell things out in black and white and it still won't help until he convinces himself with his own experiences and finds his own way.

I'm just here to convince my own dumb ass, and maybe do a fraction of what I say -- is a fraction of a fraction enough in this business? :confused:
 
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