A path towards profitability

Per person we do about 3000 contracts/day in maybe 300-400 trades.

I can't really advise on that particular method. Although it's one I'm familiar with it's not one I employ and I've never had great success trading ES. There are just too many participants for my taste unless it's overnight.



Quote from caementarius:

Thanks for your post. This kind of insight is very useful!

My thoughts on this are likely not as useful but I'd like to share my beginning inklings of 'turning the corner' in trading. I can see similar stages in my trading except it is over a longer time period, probably fewer trades per day, and with smaller size, and not as consistent.

For consistent weekly gains, how many trades are your traders making per day?

My average hold time is 31 minutes, max is up to 4-5 hours - all intraday. Annualized sharpe ratio of 2.08 - nothing to write home about yet. But, there is a point in time when a few things changed for me for the better about 6 months ago.

I went back and forth between algo and discretionary in fits and starts. Like waffling between trying to be a garage rocket scientist or to just try and be a natural through sheer will. Several mini-blowups. I decided to do the following:

Trade 1 contract of ES per $10,000 in equity
Not risk more than 2-3% of equity on any one trade

At that point I started being more confident and it became easier to both exit with a loss and to enter another trade later - even after a drawdown that lasts weeks.

As you indicated you experienced, there are parts of it I am not sure how I'd automate. This is in one sense uncomfortable, but in another way it is comforting..

If I had to describe the _strategy_, all I can come up with is some general ideas or principles. I try to enter at value areas (looking at volume profile) and feel that helps me not get whipped out as often. I put stops outside of value, because I figure at that point the trade is a bust. I like to be in the direction of either a gap that price can zip through to another value area, or at a week or multi-week high/low where there is open air price can move through. I like to be with the sentiment/trend -but the definition of what that is has become a bit fuzzy. I can see an intraday downtrend as price getting sucked back to a value area and perhaps a buying opportunity. My P&L seems to follow a similar pattern to trend following: more small to medium losses and some larger wins that make the money.

Much I need to improve but at least I feel like I'm in the game in a more sustainable way and my equity curve is roughly slanted in the right direction. Any suggestions on how to approach this continual improvement or insight on my style would be welcome.

Continual improvement is an interesting problem, because it's not clear that you are screwing up when you are making some money.
 
Quote from trend2009:

I am interested in your observation on visual aid. if wall street does not trade based on chart, instead on market depth, how could they hold their position for more than say 15 min?
Quote from garachen:

I'm not sure what you mean by wall street in this context.

What I'm saying probably doesn't apply to stock traders, certainly doesn't to longer term position holders nor to mutual funds or hedge funds doing things like capital structure arb.

If you are a trader at a trading company your time horizon is pretty short. Very calm contracts maybe 15 minutes. Most probably less.

My algo trading has very good predictive power for 1 second. Drops to nothing around 90 seconds. And is extremely good for around 20ms.

Manual trading I'm good for between 5 sec to maybe 10 minutes on most things.
 
Quote from garachen:

My algo trading has very good predictive power for 1 second. Drops to nothing around 90 seconds. And is extremely good for around 20ms.

What are you trading in 1 sec timeframe, what is your size and expectancy?
 
Quote from alexandermerwe:

What are you trading in 1 sec timeframe, what is your size and expectancy?

For fast time frames it will trade things that move fast:

metals and energy

size depends. between 10 and 100 usually depending on available liquidity

expectancy. A few increments. Algo specific.
 
Quote from garachen:

For fast time frames it will trade things that move fast:

metals and energy

size depends. between 10 and 100 usually depending on available liquidity

expectancy. A few increments. Algo specific.

For your algo work, what framework do you use for data storage and analysis? What data sources?

I'm guessing a lot may be custom but I always try to find the best tools for the job.
 
Quote from caementarius:

For your algo work, what framework do you use for data storage and analysis? What data sources?

I'm guessing a lot may be custom but I always try to find the best tools for the job.

This isn't anything that can be done by the average person or firm. That's why I focused on manual trading in this post instead.

I collect every tick off almost every futures exchange. There are some in Asia I do not have. And I store that full book as MANY terabytes of data very highly compressed. So compressed that I have to worry about cosmic rays and bit rot making it unusable.

Then we run the algo through our simulator. We are able to simulate our latency, market congestion and exchange fill algorithms. Hit that with a genetic optimizer for about a week then test resulting parameter sets for stability.

Data is bought from a variety of vendors that cover different markets. All the other software we wrote ourselves - including the database.
 
Quote from garachen:



BS

fraud.


1) Ability to take risk: avoid people with excessive debt or obligations who are desperate

2) Obedience: they have to be humble enough to obey without question. I rarely (1-2 times a year) have an opinion about anyone's position but when I do I want them out. Immediately.

3) Intuition. I measure this by playing certain board games that require intuition. I watch if they can internalize a long list of rules and play rationally.

4) Calmness: You swear. You're gone. You scream yell and hit things. Gone. You need to be calm to do the right thing. When you are upset you can no longer accurately assess probabilities which is the heart of trading.

.

You claimed to be an algo trader, but you need "ability," "intuition," "obedience," "calmness,"

You are contradicting yourself.

You will never make it as a discretionary trader. Your posts have nothing remotely related to being a successful discretionary trader.

99% traders lose, they just lose.
 
Quote from garachen:

This isn't anything that can be done by the average person or firm. That's why I focused on manual trading in this post instead.

Understood and appreciate the insight. Too high-end for a garage quant likely to compete.

But, I've been a programmer long enough to know that it isn't all quite so otherworldly when you break it down. And, with services like Amazon EC2, we all have on-demand clusters -and the future for this type of work looks interesting.
 
Quote from beachhouse:

You claimed to be an algo trader, but you need "ability," "intuition," "obedience," "calmness,"

You are contradicting yourself.

You will never make it as a discretionary trader. Your posts have nothing remotely related to being a successful discretionary trader.

99% traders lose, they just lose.

I'm not sure why you are so angry. I admit, the post deviates from the original intent which was a pathway for manual trading. I still do manually trade some and my employees manually trade but I now spend much of my time dealing with adding new products/exchanges to the algo system.

My goal is not to become a successful discretionary trader. This year my goals are to finish learning 'chasse neige' by Liszt and to fly my RC helicopter upside down. I'm pretty tired of manual trading. I find it tedious and boring and am glad I've been able to outsource it to other people successfully. I suspect it might get more interesting when we connect to Indian Multi Commodity Exchange later this year. Crazy new exchanges usually make trading interesting again.
 
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