islam4uk have not blown up any aircraft they like Westboro show up at UK military burials and protest. We had the the balls to proscribe them though
A Joyful Christmas Cheer From The Religion Of Peace
- Thread starter bugscoe
- Start date
Partly it's the same reason people are more rude to each other on the internet - distance and unfamiliarity reduce empathy. I agree collective attitudes are the other part of the equation.
After the 20th century it's amazing that a lot of people still think group identity is viable.
It's not a question of whether or not it's viable. It is, to a large degree, unavoidable. Even the notion of individualism is a culturally ( group/collective) based notion. This autonomy of identity is distinctly western. Individualism is far more faint and less common outside of western culture, and the western sphere of influence. Further, the groups of people we've been discussing, generally speaking, do not WANT more individualist societies. They are happy with the collective identity they share, and all of it's imperatives. To think that you can go brainwash them, or to impute your 'superior' values on them is very elitist. More importantly, all such endeavors have thus far failed. All attempts to 'modernize' africa, to 'democratize' the middle east... here we are, decades and trillions of dollars later... This culturally evangelical shit has to stop. The truly superior civilization will not try to "convert" the other, but will draw willing participants via pervasive cultural influence. All of this bullshit will work about as well as "modernizing" the american indians. We all know what happened with that.. both parties gave up, the amerindians were given their own land, and told to go make their own laws, and pursue their own destiny, and find their own way- which is what finally worked... This culturally invasive shit was doomed before it started... it was doomed before we forced them to have western style elections, during which they elected crooked islamist dictators... No amount of cultural missionary work will "show them the way".
Ok, but then what's the solution? I mean, you or I look at a passenger aircraft and see a useful means of transportation. The Sand People look at the same airplane and see a useful device to create a large explosion to kill many infidels. Would it not be better if we could convince them to see things our way instead? Is it so 'elitist' to want them to quit acting like such violent savages all the time?
Define the terms for them, finish building the walls, explain that any aggression will be met with fierce retaliation, close the gates, wish them well... Shut down trade with Pals or other regional peoples.
Acting like violent savages is quite normal for their culture. Sure, you will have the odd individual or group of dissidents amongst them, and they should be treated in a conciliatory manner. The culture/society at large?? That's a different story.
I'd go with isolationism. If I were the PM, I'd take back gaza (they violated the land/peace deal it was predicated upon), forgo the west bank, and finish the wall. I'd rebuild settlements for them (for PC/image purposes) in the W bank. Any more territorial expansions would have to be bought/negotiated. I'd make Hebron and jewish holy sites some sort of "international zone" so as to appease the ultra orthodox. I'd end palestinian labor/jobs within Israel indefinitely. The only way into, or out of Israel would be by sea or plane, for the most part. No it's not "elitist" to want them to quit acting like violent savages, but it's unrealistic to expect it. How many talks, and offers(for exactly what they claim they are fighting for), and rocket barrages need to happen for people to see that? I don't think it could be any more clear that it's not what they (meaning most of them + their leadership) want. Even sameeh, who I think pretty accurately reflects the views of your average Pal, doesn't want peace- he wants Israel to no longer exist.
No amount of convincing is going to turn a culture of 3rd world barbarism into warm fuzzies who want peace and prosperity- western notions of societal success. They value what they perceive as "honor" and "victory" rather than peace and prosperity. Goes back to cultural concepts of achievement and progress. Peace, prosperity, economic and scientific development aren't their ideas of achievement (collectively of course, not every individual man and woman). A huge part of most of their identity is a fundamental belief that Israel shouldn't exist, and that they have been wronged, and their lands have been stolen. This is nearly a religious belief for most pals. The whole "get them to see things our way" approach just isn't going to work. I don't understand why people can't see that. Yes, it would be better if we could get them to see things our way, but that isn't viable IMO.
Shut it down, protect yourself, wish them well- that they change sooner rather than later. Until then, futile attempts at cultural evangelism have shown no indication that they will yield any progress. This too shall pass... Until then, Israel's job isn't to redefine Arab culture, it's to keep Israelis safe and prosperous. Just m2c
Acting like violent savages is quite normal for their culture. Sure, you will have the odd individual or group of dissidents amongst them, and they should be treated in a conciliatory manner. The culture/society at large?? That's a different story.
I'd go with isolationism. If I were the PM, I'd take back gaza (they violated the land/peace deal it was predicated upon), forgo the west bank, and finish the wall. I'd rebuild settlements for them (for PC/image purposes) in the W bank. Any more territorial expansions would have to be bought/negotiated. I'd make Hebron and jewish holy sites some sort of "international zone" so as to appease the ultra orthodox. I'd end palestinian labor/jobs within Israel indefinitely. The only way into, or out of Israel would be by sea or plane, for the most part. No it's not "elitist" to want them to quit acting like violent savages, but it's unrealistic to expect it. How many talks, and offers(for exactly what they claim they are fighting for), and rocket barrages need to happen for people to see that? I don't think it could be any more clear that it's not what they (meaning most of them + their leadership) want. Even sameeh, who I think pretty accurately reflects the views of your average Pal, doesn't want peace- he wants Israel to no longer exist.
No amount of convincing is going to turn a culture of 3rd world barbarism into warm fuzzies who want peace and prosperity- western notions of societal success. They value what they perceive as "honor" and "victory" rather than peace and prosperity. Goes back to cultural concepts of achievement and progress. Peace, prosperity, economic and scientific development aren't their ideas of achievement (collectively of course, not every individual man and woman). A huge part of most of their identity is a fundamental belief that Israel shouldn't exist, and that they have been wronged, and their lands have been stolen. This is nearly a religious belief for most pals. The whole "get them to see things our way" approach just isn't going to work. I don't understand why people can't see that. Yes, it would be better if we could get them to see things our way, but that isn't viable IMO.
Shut it down, protect yourself, wish them well- that they change sooner rather than later. Until then, futile attempts at cultural evangelism have shown no indication that they will yield any progress. This too shall pass... Until then, Israel's job isn't to redefine Arab culture, it's to keep Israelis safe and prosperous. Just m2c