80% tax rate Means prosperity

[Zen Student]

Quote from jueco2005:
But it is impossible to win a war on low tax rate.

That is an argument against war not for high taxes.

Quote from jueco2005:
My post is limited to tax rates but if you take today’s lower tax rates with the endless loopholes to cheat taxes

The loopholes are bought because the tax rates are too high. If the loopholes were not included then the tax base would likely shrink further. Also, we don't need emotive words such as "cheat". If it is the law, then it is found in our statutes and court decisions. There is a distinction between cheating (illegal tax evasion) and sensible financial planning. If a loophole is legal it is not cheating.

Quote from jueco2005:
The cost of life is obviously higher, in 1950 a family of 4 could live with only one parent working, try that now even if you are a college graduate making 55,000 a year.

This is possible on a certain standard of living. However, if you want iPhones from China, kiwi fruit from New Zealand, meat from Australia, cars from Germany, machinery from Japan, medical products from Great Britain, a space program, social security, air conditioned high rise buildings, and a plethora of government employees devoted to keeping you safe from random suicidal brown men then you shall have to pay a little more. This means doing more work.

The majority of the poorest households in the nation have at least one colour television. Very very different standard of living to the working poor of the 1950s.

 

[JerryAdler]

Old Money, New Money Flee France and Its Wealth Tax

"Taittinger, who helped create the champagne label that is synonymous with luxury worldwide, said the French tax system not only helped force the sale of his family company but scattered the 38 family members involved in the corporation.

"Half of my family left France because of taxes," said Taittinger, who remained in France and is now mayor of one of Paris's districts. "They now live in England, Belgium and other countries where they were warmly welcomed -- unlike here."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071501010_2.html

You must be smoking some strong stuff to believe that Europeans are paying their "wealth" taxes. The flight of capital from Europe is an ever-increasing problem particularly in the Scandinavian countries. Get real. It don't work, has never worked and will never work. Robbing the rich to to give to the poor is an out dated model. It only serves left-wing ideologues who use the poor and less well off as a battering ram against the rich. It does nothing to improve their lives. Prove me wrong on this.

 

[JerryAdler]

Martin Feldstein, Harvard economist and former president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, co-authored a famous study in 1998 called "Can State Taxes Redistribute Income?" This should be required reading for today's state legislators. It concludes: "Since individuals can avoid unfavorable taxes by migrating to jurisdictions that offer more favorable tax conditions, a relatively unfavorable tax will cause gross wages to adjust. . . . A more progressive tax thus induces firms to hire fewer high skilled employees and to hire more low skilled employees."

More recently, Barry W. Poulson of the University of Colorado last year examined many factors that explain why some states grew richer than others from 1964 to 2004 and found "a significant negative impact of higher marginal tax rates on state economic growth." In other words, soaking the rich doesn't work. To the contrary, middle-class workers end up taking the hit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html

 

[jueco2005]

Quote from r-in:

LOL, again you chose not to respond to your assertions, and throw out new assertions. I'll take living in the US everyday over those you cite. You are laughable at best and again refuse to offer any tangible proof to your claims.
I rate you a fool, and my time is done. I wish you could have offered something worthwhile as I would have been willing to listen. Sadly you just throw out one more assertion after another with no proof. I'll continue to live in the US, and you can move elswhere if you think it is better, and I will continue to research who I give money to and ocntribute to those that make a difference.

You do that. But before take an English class and learn how to write. 2 misspelled above. Good luck my friend.

 

[jueco2005]

Quote from Zen Student:

That is an argument against war not for high taxes.

The loopholes are bought because the tax rates are too high. If the loopholes were not included then the tax base would likely shrink further. Also, we don't need emotive words such as "cheat". If it is the law, then it is found in our statutes and court decisions. There is a distinction between cheating (illegal tax evasion) and sensible financial planning. If a loophole is legal it is not cheating.

This is possible on a certain standard of living. However, if you want iPhones from China, kiwi fruit from New Zealand, meat from Australia, cars from Germany, machinery from Japan, medical products from Great Britain, a space program, social security, air conditioned high rise buildings, and a plethora of government employees devoted to keeping you safe from random suicidal brown men then you shall have to pay a little more. This means doing more work.

The majority of the poorest households in the nation have at least one colour television. Very very different standard of living to the working poor of the 1950s.

Well here you and I take 180 degrees positions. I do not agree.

 

[jueco2005]

Quote from JerryAdler:

Old Money, New Money Flee France and Its Wealth Tax

"Half of my family left France because of taxes," said Taittinger, who remained in France and is now mayor of one of Paris's districts. "They now live in England, Belgium and other countries where they were warmly welcomed -- unlike here."

Well it seems he changed one master for another. Compared to the US England and Belgium are socialist countries. The math doesn’t add up my friend. Maybe he did improve from France to England/Belgium, but they did not come over here.

Quote from JerryAdler:



You must be smoking some strong stuff to believe that Europeans are paying their "wealth" taxes. The flight of capital from Europe is an ever-increasing problem particularly in the Scandinavian countries. Get real. It don't work, has never worked and will never work. Robbing the rich to to give to the poor is an out dated model. It only serves left-wing ideologues who use the poor and less well off as a battering ram against the rich. It does nothing to improve their lives. Prove me wrong on this.

That is not how I perceived Europeans to be. Back in Europe when I spoke to them they always ask me how do we manage to work for no vacation paid time, no medical insurance and poor education. I was speechless. Germans, French, Austrians and English all asked me the same thing.

I don’t know………maybe I manage to find socialist guys like me all over ah??

 

[jueco2005]

Quote from JerryAdler:

Martin Feldstein, Harvard economist and former president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, co-authored a famous study in 1998 called "Can State Taxes Redistribute Income?" This should be required reading for today's state legislators. It concludes: "Since individuals can avoid unfavorable taxes by migrating to jurisdictions that offer more favorable tax conditions, a relatively unfavorable tax will cause gross wages to adjust. . . . A more progressive tax thus induces firms to hire fewer high skilled employees and to hire more low skilled employees."

More recently, Barry W. Poulson of the University of Colorado last year examined many factors that explain why some states grew richer than others from 1964 to 2004 and found "a significant negative impact of higher marginal tax rates on state economic growth." In other words, soaking the rich doesn't work. To the contrary, middle-class workers end up taking the hit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html

This is totally wrong. I could not give any valid to this. Sorry.

These are the same experts that told us "everything is running just fine".

By the way, get your passport and travel please. Maybe it is more expensive for you because we barely have paid vacation but take the time and go!!!

 

[trefoil]

Quote from 9999:

Oh, really? Lemme guess, Italians are thieves because it's in their dna, right? Do you happen to have a business in Italy?

Who said they were thieves? You said they were leaving because of taxes. I got this:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/337ea3b0-0ee0-11e1-b83c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1jBBLzpu2

As one American official told me: “I guess you could try for a sort of wartime solidarity, where the European public would buy savings bonds to finance the effort. But that is kind of inconsistent with all these people rushing to get their money out of town.”

He is referring to a phenomenon visible to Manhattanites: there has been a sudden influx of rich Europeans, in particular Italians, strolling around the expensive neighbourhoods, looking at apartments, and trying to get a feel for what expatriate life would be like. They observe, with some relief, that the food has gotten a lot better in recent years.

Just in case, that's from an article re the euro, and the above refers to Italians leaving because of what's happening.

There's also this: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/bcfc5ddc-14ec-11e1-b9b8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1jBBLzpu2

which, to quote, says "deposit flight is one reason why the peripheral banks are funding themselves ECB-approved Emergency Liquidity Assistance from their local central banks".
Money is on the move because of the euro, not taxes.

Finally, there's this paper from 2004 (http://www-3.unipv.it/websiep/wp/337.pdf):

Tax evasion is a serious issue in Italy. According to recent estimates it seems that between 27% and 48% of official Italian GDP is hidden. By using different methodologies, these estimates show that Italy is the country where tax evasion is the highest among major OECD countries (Schneider,
2000a).

 

[zdreg]

Italy is collapsing.

http://news.yahoo.com/mafia-now-italys-no-1-bank-crisis-bites-192212818.html

 

[9999]

Quote from trefoil:

Who said they were thieves? You said they were leaving because of taxes. I got this:



Just in case, that's from an article re the euro, and the above refers to Italians leaving because of what's happening.

There's also this: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/bcfc5ddc-14ec-11e1-b9b8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1jBBLzpu2

which, to quote, says "deposit flight is one reason why the peripheral banks are funding themselves ECB-approved Emergency Liquidity Assistance from their local central banks".
Money is on the move because of the euro, not taxes.

Finally, there's this paper from 2004 (http://www-3.unipv.it/websiep/wp/337.pdf): [/B]

This is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't address the causes. Since Italy cannot print its way out of this mess anymore like it used to, now we're suffering. The Euro just brought our problems to the surface, problems that were there way before this currency came.
Tax evasion is indeed a serious issue here, but ppl don't break the law for fun or sports or because we consider it a "high art" like you said. Wanna know why?
-fiscal pressure too high.
Official figures say it's about 45-48%, if I remember correctly. That's bullshit. When you consider everything, it can reach 55% or more.
-public services are very inefficient, compared to the money they get. Justice is extremely inefficient, with civil trials going on for years and years. Imagine having your own shop, customers don't pay you and there's very little - if nothing- you can do about it.
-large areas of the south regions are controlled by organized crime. Need I say more?
-and finally, for our IRS we are guilty before proven innocent. Let's say you have a business. Irs comes to you saying that you owe him money. But you're square, and you can prove it. However, the Irs wants money. So, you either go to court (spending money and considerable time), or you settle for a smaller amount. Nice, eh?
So, I reiterate my point: ppl leave because taxes are too high and also because they're sick and tired to be considered just a lemon to be squeezed. The Euro acted as a catalyst.